Revelations from Patch 2.55 [SPOILERS]

[MilesSaintboroguh]

As far as I'm concerned, the three leaders and their so-called Grand Companies are all but dead to me. If we EVER get a change to side with the Empire. I'M TAKING IT. Or better yet, I'll unite all the beastmen together and be the next Shadow Lord.

You make the WOL look like a child throwing a tantrum just to spite people. Why do I see many people that hate how the plot panned out always go this extreme?

[Cilia]

All right, let's go on.

Fine, keep your eyes close with full force just you don't have to see it. EVERYTHING is pointing toward him. Nothing to anyone else.

My eyes are neither shut nor are my ears covered. Though he has the most clear motive there is not one shred, not one bit, not one scrap of evidence pointing to Lolorito's guilt, because no such evidence even exists. A motive alone is not enough to convict someone, especially given the state of corruption in Ul'dah and, as I've iterated time and again, the likelihood that Lolorito has the justice system bent to his will.

Exactly... *sigh*

If what you were trying to get at is that there's no way the Warrior of Light or Scions would ever hatch a plot to assassinate the Sultana because they have nothing to gain from it and have more important things to worry about, and the populace would never believe any such story... you're right. Talking to various NPCs confirms this. But that's irrelevant, because the Monetarists (Lolorito) now have complete control of the state in Ul'dah. Framing us and imprisoning or executing us leaves us indisposed, and with the Crystal Braves in their pocket the Monetarists now have free reign to go ahead with their plans (excavating Omega). There's also the possibility they're in league with the Garleans and/or Ascians, and having us indisposed would be a great boon to both of their plans.

Yeah.. AFTER the coup, sure. I just said this.

It was already that corrupt. The coup simply laid that corruption bare.

By the way: the cutscene itself gives a perfect example of how powerful the guards and the scions are.

Ilberd does an AoE attack. The few Brass Blade and Crystal Braves in the room instantly die or are knocked out, while Ysh just deflects it for the whole group - btw with a motion of her hand, without any weapon. This means, actually only Ilberd is a real enemy in this room. The others are far to weak to be a threat, obviously. The cutscene itself it telling that. And outside? As said before. We run outside. No one there. Really no one. You don't hear anyone, see anyone. Then the chat party begins about this odd situation and after some minutes, the first seven guards appear - who are getting slaughtered by Yda and Papa, while Ida dilacerates the next 10 with a Final Heaven, which pretty sure breaks all their bones and turns their organs into some bloody something.

Ilberd is just the most important and capable combatant among the enemy, because he's the only one with a name (well, except Laurentius, but we all know what a weasel he is). The Scions are above your average combatant in terms of prowess, but no matter how capable they (and we) are, they (and we) cannot fight off an entire city's army. Put aside how you want to view the characters for 5 minutes and accept it.

Are any of them dead? I highly doubt it.

If they're not dead, how did they survive? We'll find that out in 3.x.

As Wadoka said: If the WoL would have to enter the palace - and the situation is clear, people die, there are spies, we were many times attacked from behind in the main story and so on - and this would have an impact on our power, we would simply decline it and say, that we need another way/place to meet, other circumstances or we would at least go for example as a Ninja. You don't need daggers for the Mudras, for hiding or Shukuchi (the teleport"). To go into such a place even without and defense would just be idiotic.

We weren't expecting trouble, or to be framed for the assassination of a key political figure. I've iterated time and again why we weren't allowed to take our weapons with us into the Sultana's chambers; don't make me repeat myself for the sixth time. Sometimes you have to separate the gameplay mechanics and story (just like how Thancred was incapacitated with single arrow, or how Aerith died in VII and couldn't be resurrected with a Phoenix Down), and this is just one of those instances.

As an aside, I don't need explanation on Ninja powers. I do have it at 50... almost done with my Novus, imperfect as it may be. Could I have used those same skills I'd been accused of killing Nanamo with (assassination and poison) against Lolorito? Maybe. Maybe. But like I said above there has to be moments that separate gameplay and story, and this was one such moment.

Well, the WoL was written down to a angsty (and also pretty dumb) coward not even trying to help anyone, abandoning everyone. Sure, many people give a shit on the main story or roleplay (= their characters emotions, thinking and so on) anyway and just see, that the story leads heavensward, to the expansion. So of course they will never have any problem with any story, because they don't care for the story.

The Warrior of Light never angsts throughout the end of 2.55 (Alphinaud does enough of that for the both of you). The intelligence is debatable, but there wasn't really anything pointing towards foul play (against you, personally) until Laurentius insisted you take the empty vial sitting out there in Thanalan. If you want to call the Warrior of Light a coward, go right ahead - but we were clearly outplayed and outmached, and true strength isn't standing and fighting an impossible battle; it's accepting your faults, flaws, and limitations, and striving to overcome them. Self-reflection is sometimes necessary for this, which I imagine is that the Warrior of Light is doing canonically between 2.5.5 and 3.0.

Does the story lead to Heavensward? Sure it does, because that's what it was designed to do. We were going to Ishgard anyway - the only difference is we're now refugees seeking asylum instead of great heroes come to save the day.

I don't understand why you keep insisting that people who accept the story for what it is don't care about it. We're not writing the story - we're not in control. Whether you accept it for what it is or reject it for whatever reason is irrelevant - the writers decided to write their story, and you read (or watched) it. To that end it's easier to accept it for what it is, and I didn't feel like there were any particular weak points in the writing. If you choose to reject it that's entirely your decision, but that isn't going to change it.

I don't see the Sultana as close friend. We have almost no contact to her. She's just a good and kind leader. And if it would be different, then just running away would be even more strange. The WoL is no civilian (if a civilian is just shattered by something like that, sure, but we have seen so many people dying...). The reaction would be more like Raubahn's. Sure, maybe we would have no chance, because Ilberd is somehow possessed by a god or whatever, but that's a different point.

As I iterated above, standing and fighting a suicidal battle against Ilberd and the army of Brass Blades and Crystal Braves at his back isn't going to avenge Nanamo. Sure, we've killed lots of people, but they were trying to kill us too, and if you can't separate the battlefield from everyday life, then I suppose no, you wouldn't be shaken by Nanamo's rather sudden and (to an extent) graphic death. More people might (say they'd) react more like Raubahn... but there's no way to know for sure unless you were placed into that kind of situation in real life. Would you have stayed to fight Ilberd with Raubahn or bolted before he could tell you to? Who knows.

Even if you didn't consider Nanamo a close friend and confidant, she basically entrusted her nation's fate to you mere moments ago. If that's not enough to foster feelings of friendship toward her, or grief at her sudden and unexpected death... man, I don't know what is.

Lastly, please stop cherry picking the points you feel are weakest in others' arguments. You need to address the whole thing, not just one or two bits out of context.

As another aside, ironically it's the people who assume they have the most control over themselves in stressful situations that have the least.

[Bloody]

Here's the problem I see in this argument. We must remember that some of the cutscenes we see show things our characters do not, and a lot of people also have metagaming mental bias as well after the hint that the Scions would be betrayed dropped in 2.5(2.4?) so of course some people are going to forget that our perspective is much more encompassing of than that of the WoL. Would my character be suspicious, hell yes, and I probably would have said something's up to the Scions via linkpearl, and been kind of paranoid around Nanamo (I mean, Wilred got gutted and our friend was MIA at the train tracks) but ultimately yea, I would have checked my weapon at the door, and been kind of screwed if I hadn't thought to dissuade alcohol consumption.

[Wadoka]

...in fact his exasperated sigh in the post-escape scene with the Handmaiden may be his annoyance at having to even say those few lines he did at the feast.

That small but heart-felt frustrated sigh is, IMO, the most interesting, most intriguing event of the finale. What could it mean...

"This should never have been necessary... the fools forced my hand."

"Well, that could have gone better. Idiots..."

Stay tuned!

Except it is that corrupt, because the scheme did happen.

Agreed. Corruption is an unremarked, accepted way of life to an Ul'dahn. Not to swing too wide a loop, but I'd compare it favorably to modern Mexico, the land of the "little bite". All commerce, all trade, all regulation... greased (or not) by sub rosa money. "I see corrupt people... and they don't even realize they're corrupt." Because it's NORMAL in Ul'dah. "Everybody does it."

As an aside, I shudder to think what you've gone through to the point that watching a close friend and confidant choke and die right in front of you would barely faze you. Truly.

Cilia... everyone has different levels of natural or conditioned empathy. I have low empathy and what little I have, I make sure to refrain from displaying. Overt emotionalism is exploitable weakness. And I am not alone - this is my culture. There are many like me. We may in fact, be Legion.

We are fighters. We've seen death. We've lost friends. We've killed - many times. We are creatures who act. Grief? Well... "I ain't got time to grieve."

Maybe later.

Maybe not.

Well, the WoL was written down to a angsty (and also pretty dumb) coward not even trying to help anyone, abandoning everyone...

One of the low points of the story, was seeing my character thrown to the floor on her butt, in front of the gathering... and just sitting there, looking like she was crying or about to cry. That's not her; will never be her; and should not be the Warrior of Light either.

(What does that scene look like if you're male? Does a male character also look like he's about to cry?)

Here's the problem I see in this argument. We must remember that some of the cutscenes we see show things our characters do not, and a lot of people also have metagaming mental bias as well after the hint that the Scions would be betrayed dropped in 2.5(2.4?) so of course some people are going to forget that our perspective is much more encompassing of than that of the WoL. Would my character be suspicious, hell yes, and I probably would have said something's up to the Scions via linkpearl, and been kind of paranoid around Nanamo (I mean, Wilred got gutted and our friend was MIA at the train tracks) but ultimately yea, I would have checked my weapon at the door, and been kind of screwed if I hadn't thought to dissuade alcohol consumption.

It's a good point - it's called "Irony of Situation" when the audience/reader has information the characters don't - but it wouldn't apply to my particular Warrior of Light. I hadn't picked up on any hints the Scions were going to be betrayed, for one thing; and after further review, from the perspective of how my character would have behaved on the spur of the moment... there would STILL be Brass Blade guts dripping from the chandeliers as I set out, a Blade scimitar in each hand, on a mission to find my friends and wreak havoc.

I am going to go into Heavensward with bated breath to see what plays out next, but I still HATE being railroaded. Railroading is why I never finished XIII or bought its follow-ons. And for what it's worth... I replayed VII six times, trying to figure out what I'd done wrong, trying to save Aeris.

[Grayve]

Hard to quote on an iPad, but my female highlander didn't look like crying. More a mix of surprise, anger, and then sadness/disappointment.

[Rannie]

Since my character is male I will answer it. To me he looked to be in pain and with that can come from many different factors since it is the same expression pretty much if you do the ouch. And for me since i'm whm my entire train of thought is they weren't treating you too sunshine and lollypops i feel like they were most likely roughing you up a bit, however that isn't necessarily what happened. I'm just thinking that cause i'm squishy and easy to hurt also due to how ilberd was bent down it does seem you were dragged in and then and thrown down roughly.


Edit: sorry was in a dungeon when trying to type this...

Also he looked as if he felt a bit helpless as well. Kinda like the whole thought was running through his head of "damn it I'm tied up and I can't do a thing"

[Cilia]

Cilia... everyone has different levels of natural or conditioned empathy. I have low empathy and what little I have, I make sure to refrain from displaying. Overt emotionalism is exploitable weakness. And I am not alone - this is my culture. There are many like me. We may in fact, be Legion.

We are fighters. We've seen death. We've lost friends. We've killed - many times. We are creatures who act. Grief? Well... "I ain't got time to grieve."

Maybe later.

Maybe not.

That aside was in reference to you stating your real-world personality is similarly lacking in empathy. You can construct whatever in-game persona you want, realistic or otherwise, but lacking empathy in the real world is kind of known as sociopathy. It's not cool.

I am going to go into Heavensward with bated breath to see what plays out next, but I still HATE being railroaded. Railroading is why I never finished XIII or bought its follow-ons. And for what it's worth... I replayed VII six times, trying to figure out what I'd done wrong, trying to save Aeris.

If you hate railroading, don't bother with (MMO)JRPGs. That's what they're... well not quite built on, but they have a story to tell and you don't get to determine the outcome of many events. Railroading? I guess... but as I pointed out earlier (and you so graciously ignored), SE does not have enough time and resources to develop branching story paths based on each player's wishes (for whatever reason). A generalization, accurate or otherwise, is the best they can do.

Rewatching "The Parting Glass" I was able to find a weakness in Ilberd's account of the events... he says "The poison took her swiftly. Her handmaiden can attest to that." There hadn't been nearly enough time for an autopsy, and there were no eyewitnesses to Namamo's death besides the PC - Teledji comes in a few moments after Nanamo dies, with the Handmaiden in tow behind the Brass Blades, and declares "I see no other suspects, and the room has but the one entrance!" So there's no way the Handmaiden or Ilberd could know that without knowing what the poison that killed her was.

It's small... but it's a start.

[Wadoka]

That aside was in reference to you stating your real-world personality is similarly lacking in empathy. You can construct whatever in-game persona you want, realistic or otherwise, but lacking empathy in the real world is kind of known as sociopathy. It's not cool.

From the point of view of a sociopath, it's extremely cool. It makes them stronger, in their mind, than people with a strong empathetic trait. Strong emotion, strong empathy, is an exploitable weakness - a weakness they do not have.

People with low empathy are dispassionate, coolly rational, and imperturbable in a crisis. Just the sort of person you need when the world is going Wahooni-shaped. That person can stand like an Adamantine wall with firebombs dropping all around, acting from moment to moment on willpower and self-realization, and getting the job done, come what may. And their heroism is a cleaner, more-honest heroism, as it is driven by pure self-determinism, not emotional impulse.

(Obviously we could argue for a year and a day about whether empathetic people are stronger or weaker in personality/character, statistically, than non-empathetic people, and never agree, because it's a hard stop - each cannot see from the other's perspective...)

If you hate railroading, don't bother with (MMO)JRPGs. That's what they're... well not quite built on, but they have a story to tell and you don't get to determine the outcome of many events. Railroading? I guess...

I agree, stories must be forced in a certain direction. There will have to be key and unavoidable crisis points, and resolutions thereto. This patch, however, was forced *clumsily*, so clumsily, it affected my enjoyment of the scenario in a way none of the previous advancements had done. Maybe it plays better in the Japanese market; I don't know.

I do know, none of the other updates made me say "This is bullschlitz" several times, in media res.

Cheers!

[lololink]

To me the issue is that considering the story and who is the WoL, having a character emotionless à la Link or Pokémon isn't really a good idea, it doesn't really help imaginating what my character is thinking in this kind of situations and maybe putting some personality in the WoL would be better.

[Eisenhower]

If you hate railroading, don't bother with (MMO)JRPGs. That's what they're... well not quite built on, but they have a story to tell and you don't get to determine the outcome of many events. Railroading? I guess... but as I pointed out earlier (and you so graciously ignored), SE does not have enough time and resources to develop branching story paths based on each player's wishes (for whatever reason). A generalization, accurate or otherwise, is the best they can do.

A good point. It might have been mentioned earlier in the thread, I was just skimming after all, but: Although the WoL is the character the player controls, the actual character of this avatar (insubstantial as it may be) is something that's determined by Square Enix's story team. We get to pick the face and how we fight at times but aside from that we're in the passenger seat, not behind the wheel.

To me the issue is that considering the story and who is the WoL, having a character emotionless à la Link or Pokémon isn't really a good idea, it doesn't really help imaginating what my character is thinking in this kind of situations and maybe putting some personality in the WoL would be better.

Having anything other than the neutral mask on the player avatar in a game/story like this will alienate more players than having a defined character, whatever that character may be. However, there is enough material to infer the character of the WoL.