Will you quit if this game becomes raid-centric?

[Fensfield]

I might.

At least, I'm sure if it happened, it would be one more step on the road to driving me away, anyway.

[mysterytaru]

I'll just leave this here for people to chew on when defending XI as-it-is versus XI as-it-was.

In March/April 2010, XI was 8yrs old. They announced closing of 8 servers, first Level Cap increase to 80 with 99 being the goal, and Abyssea. Flash forward almost exactly one year. April 2011. All Abyssea expansions have been released, level cap increases still coming, again 99 being the goal, and another 8 servers closing.

It took 1yr of population loss to match 8yrs of gradual loss. You know what changed? 8yrs of content made useless. Abyssea was added and *almost everything* outside of that became irrelevant. If this had been added even 4 yrs ago and level cap upped then, this may not have been an issue. As it is, it took 7yrs to raise the cap beyond 75. 7yrs of stable content and stable population wiped out with Abyssea and a cap increase that came too late. The difference in population between two announcements almost one year apart tell the story all too clearly.

You know why you don't hear people complaining about Abyssea so much now? Most people left silently. Said goodbye to old friends w/o making forum drama, said goodbye to the game...and left. Just like that. It was easier. The people who were so vocal about how SE ruined XI? Most of the ones I knew of who did that are still playing. Vana Fest 2010 made it clear where they were going with XI. I shrugged. After six months of slowly dwindling ability to get anything done outside of Abyssea, I left. I gave it a chance and it didn't work for me, all the fun was gone. There are more like me who just let go quietly, than were vocal and shouting form the rooftops. In the end, the server merges this year were our "we told you so" moment.

Anyone who says Abyssea was good for XI, might might want to think about these things. I imagine there will be another server merge in March/April 2012 too, if not sooner. Will Abyssea still be the best thing since sliced bread? Or will people finally admit it was a mortal blow? Time will tell, and to be truthful, already is.

If they can work that kind of content into XIV early in its life, things have a chance to be different this time. Being planned from the start makes a world of difference than dropping it in seven years later. We shall see.

[Melian]

I wouldn't read too much into xi's server merges and population decline. After all, the games been around for a very long time, had a very good run, and it's fairly reasonable to think it has come close to running its course at this point with or without those changes. Although I agree with you inasmuch as if I were still around, I would be unable to deal with them making everything I'd done over so many years irrelevant and I would leave. As is, I left just a bit before the "new" content. The game already felt like it was closer to over than not with 14 on the way, along with a whole bunch of next gen games from other companies, and I didn't want to keep working for things that would vanish with an old game. To be fair, there's plenty of other reasons I left as well, but no need to get into that here.

To the people acting like raids are bad because they make items exclusive to endgame players... I don't get that at all. It's a /much/ more lenient system than xi had. Anyone with an LS has a good shot at getting the raid items because no one can block them. If you don't have the time for that... sure... you won't get it. But the game can't cater to everyone (and that cuts both ways. 14 has/will get more concessions for casual solo players as well, which hardcore endgame people don't need and might even dislike).

Open world NM's are great. And I think we should have them too/keep them. But XI really dropped the ball on that by having it's system reward people who broke the Terms of Service. I don't want to do that again, even though I came out "on top" of it in xi. A design that rewards players who break the ToS is poor. I honestly think the new one with almost constant repops on Uraeous/etc isn't that bad. It's another system that lets everyone have access to the gear - provided they're competent enough to handle the challenge.

What I'd /REALLY/ like to see is to have the difficulty of those constant NMs ramped up greatly in the future though, to compensate for their constant presence. That way /anyone/ can get the gear without cheating or breaking the ToS, but only if they're part of a set of 8 decent players (or perhaps 16 if/when alliances are allowed). Harder fights requiring perfect timing etc. But not fights that are impossible to get to/initiate. You can say sitting in the Aery every day of the week for 2 or 3 hours was good social time... and to some extent that was true. But to a much larger extent it was a very poor use of real life time on my part that I chose to partake in nonetheless. I don't want to do that again if I don't have to. (And don't think I /would/ do it again, period).

So would I quit if they add more instanced things? Not really. I don't want to see the game become an instance fest like WoW or anything, but I think having a few around is quite healthy for variety, and adds an enjoyable way to xp/get gear/do stuff on /YOUR/ schedule, and not an arbitrary pop timer. These games can be very time consuming if you take them "seriously". But if you're able to manage that time somewhat with your ls and do Raid X on Y day of the week, while going after NM A (who's always up) on B day of the week, you can handle that time commitment pretty easily, without letting it get to your more serious real life affairs.

[Visch]

Instanced content will always be superior to open world content.

... Why because you don't want to compete with people? This is you opinion not a fact.

I'd rather not have latency play a part in whether or not I get a chance at a monster

It's not SE's or anyone elses fault if your computer is bad.

and I sure as hell don't want to have to get up at 2:00 AM just to have a chance either.

That is the whole point of open world content...? People live in different time zones. Hurrdurr.

I find it sad that instanced content seems to be the future of all MMO's it looses the magic, the challenge. Hell I guess because I never woke up at 2:00am to get a sword that was marginally better than others I didn't have to deal with that headache other did.

I don't understand why people make such a big deal over this "2:00 AM" camping. The ONLY real HNMs people really did that on was Tiamat because of it's crazy spawn time. People just showed up to Fafnir/Cerb/Behe etc when it was in their time zone.

And look at EINHERJAR! That is what made everything perfect in my opinion. There was drops from ONLY the HNMs (D. ring, ridill, etc) and then the main armor drops which could be obtained from the HNM or an instance with a 3 day cooldown.

I only camped HNM on occasion and never got any gear from them, I can tell you I claimed a few HNM myself without a "Packet sniffing bot program" like many claim was the only way to do.

I claimed all the time on PS2. And got hate tells for "botting". Everyone is just mad they can't always get what they want instantly and give up too easy in my opinion. ~_~

My life in FFXI was an adventure to see what my thief could kill next, what could I take on by myself. If I couldn't solo it I asked my friends for help claiming and felling the beast. Nothing beats getting your friend that Joyuese after days of hillarious murder antics in that wretched dungeon.

Exactly... I remember times inviting people to do something with me and letting them lot on the item I wanted just to have their help in securing the claim and kill when I could probably have done it solo/duo and got the drop for myself. It had cooperation and competition!

Sure it's "Easier" to instance everything but where is the fun and challenge in that? Where is the adventure in slotting up in line to enter that big bad dungeon? Where is the sense of exploration when your on a time budget? I remember running through any new zone that appeared with my friends avoiding Agro and death just so we could snap screenshots in the most dangerous and beatifull locals!

Everyone wants everything handed to them these day.

"I want maps giving to me from the start"
"I want to know the monsters level at a glance"
"I want to know if the monster agro"

I remember when Wamoura were added to XI I encountered one while showing my friend how easy it was to save the serpent generals in Zhalom!

"Hey...what the hell is that" he asked.
"Beats me!" I answered
"Does....does it agro?" he cautiously reminds me
"I dunno...maybe"
"Maybe we should avoid it?" He worrisomly mentions.
"What was that? can't hear you I'm allready poking it with this stick here."

Hillarity ensued.

Yup... It really kills a lot of what people enjoyed in XI...

Mundane timed instanced content is so boring, so droll, so devoid of excitement that I always held when aimlessly wandering around. Instanced content has it's place, Assults, BCNM's, Quest fights, other misc stuff was fun in it's own way. But why should it be the only focus?

I want to walk into a new zone not knowing what dangers lie ahead of me! I don't want giant glowing icons warning me of impending danger, I want to walk on "The cracks" and get dropkicked by a Antlion!

100% agree with you on everything.

This game is XI on training wheels for the most part but it's all we got now isn't it? Lol.

i am, already play 90% less since this update. Doing leve runs with LS was tons more of fun and they actually let everyone in, now it's ... oh no we need this job, and that job.. f/ that.

LOL. Is all I'm going to say to that. Hope for alliances and Dynamis?

To the people acting like raids are bad because they make items exclusive to endgame players... I don't get that at all. It's a /much/ more lenient system than xi had. Anyone with an LS has a good shot at getting the raid items because no one can block them. If you don't have the time for that... sure... you won't get it. But the game can't cater to everyone (and that cuts both ways. 14 has/will get more concessions for casual solo players as well, which hardcore endgame people don't need and might even dislike).

Instanced makes everything 100 times easier and removes any competition from the game.

Open world NM's are great. And I think we should have them too/keep them. But XI really dropped the ball on that by having it's system reward people who broke the Terms of Service. I don't want to do that again, even though I came out "on top" of it in xi. A design that rewards players who break the ToS is poor. I honestly think the new one with almost constant repops on Uraeous/etc isn't that bad. It's another system that lets everyone have access to the gear - provided they're competent enough to handle the challenge.

I agree with you but people claim botting in XI never secured their claim 100% of the time. I just want stuff to be rare and feel like an accomplishment getting it! :/

What I'd /REALLY/ like to see is to have the difficulty of those constant NMs ramped up greatly in the future though, to compensate for their constant presence. That way /anyone/ can get the gear without cheating or breaking the ToS, but only if they're part of a set of 8 decent players (or perhaps 16 if/when alliances are allowed). Harder fights requiring perfect timing etc. But not fights that are impossible to get to/initiate. You can say sitting in the Aery every day of the week for 2 or 3 hours was good social time... and to some extent that was true. But to a much larger extent it was a very poor use of real life time on my part that I chose to partake in nonetheless. I don't want to do that again if I don't have to. (And don't think I /would/ do it again, period).

Well the answer to that is what they did with Einherjar.

[Betelgeuzah]

I approve of your sig.

[Melian]

Instanced makes everything 100 times easier and removes any competition from the game.

I get that it removes the competition, and for that reason certainly agree that not everything should be instanced. However, I definitely approve of having a few things (a lot of things, even) that are. Some competition is good, and makes for a better community. How does it make it 100 times easier though (assuming we're not taking mpk attempts or the lag of 100 people standing on you into consideration as added challenge)?

Well the answer to that is what they did with Einherjar.

Yeah... that's a pretty good example I think. It was an event I enjoyed too. My favorite FFXI memories are probably of low manning tiamat with other people looking on impatiently/mad/jealous (back when people rushed out on pop, rather than actually sitting there camping Tiamat for days). But my second best memories are all probably from content like einherjar. I even had lots of fun doing it's easier version in limbus with my small ls, which was instanced stuff as well. My least favorite times were the competition over kings. I just didn't get a kick out of standing there multiple hours, 7 days a week.

So again, I think that some competition is great. But I'd really rather not see a repeat of the competition as time sink/botting reward. Even if the botters don't get it 100% of the time, they still managed a very high percent. I was in an ls that removed the darter dats in the aery before a lot of people figured that out. That's not good competition though, it's just allowing cheaters to get rewarded. And the time spent in the aery every day of the week wasn't that fun, despite getting the claim most days of the week. I can't imagine how unfun it would be for the people who almost never got to fight there.

Edit: As an aside, I want to say that I never removed the dats or botted myself. Which doesn't really excuse me any, because I certainly hung around people who did and took advantage of it plenty. Just stating that though.

[Zanfire]

If they cant keep a good balance of the 2 (open and instanced) then this game will be just like the rest. One thing that made FFXI stand out was how much endgame content it had and the amount of variety in both open and instanced.....for lot of level ranges, not just endgame only.

And as much as people get frustrated with claims and such in FFXI (which it can very well be) but the excitement and nervesness alone was well worth it. I remember plenty of times where we waited on the next big HNM pop and my heart was racing....and when we got it....wow what a rush of "YES!! BOO-YAH!!" just as it was a big depressing letdown when you didnt and for some of us...Cussing and saying "RMT BOTTERS F*CK YOU!!" (even though they were not always like that lol) Heck i got that feeling for lower end NMs camping against people (LL/emporor im looking at you)

[Khalus]

Joining the conversation late, but to answer the topics question. It already has become quite raid centric, with all the best gear only begotten from the 8-man dungeon, and prior to that the hardest NMs required 8-man, and even prior to those changes required as many at 15-man.

FFXIV is yet another MMO that claims itself to be a PvE game, and makes it so its more than possible to solo throughout the whole of the adventure, but as soon as you want the best stuff, you're forced into raiding. Now don't take this the wrong way, I love to group up and kill mobs and play with others, but what I hate is running the same instances over and over and over again hoping for specific drops.

There needs to be other ways to get the best stuff, even for the solo player.

[GabbaGabba]

Joining the conversation late, but to answer the topics question. It already has become quite raid centric, with all the best gear only begotten from the 8-man dungeon, and prior to that the hardest NMs required 8-man, and even prior to those changes required as many at 15-man.

FFXIV is yet another MMO that claims itself to be a PvE game, and makes it so its more than possible to solo throughout the whole of the adventure, but as soon as you want the best stuff, you're forced into raiding. Now don't take this the wrong way, I love to group up and kill mobs and play with others, but what I hate is running the same instances over and over and over again hoping for specific drops.

There needs to be other ways to get the best stuff, even for the solo player.

its no different than killing the same NM over and over just for drops or farming certain mobs over and over for tokens to buy certain stuff too.

MMOs are a business first so they add timesinks for you so u have to keep playing until u achieve something.

its sad but theres not many different timesinks they could add in the game so its pretty much down to open world HNMs to instanced/non instanced raids.

[Gramul]

I approve of your sig.

It's ironic because Faust is married to McCracken.