Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

[jehuty08]

Well with losing our monk and 2 of our members getting new jobs, it took us a while, but my static finally cleared t13 (and we did it double DRG no less )

[Dervy]

I'm not particularly fond of the entire potency per second math surrounding cooldown usage.370 second

Napkin math time.

Let's assume you have an SS of 391, or 2.452 skillspeed. Let's now also assume that you're using your first BFB at the beginning of the encounter as that is when your damage is most impactful (more oCDs and buffs stack multiplicatively).

If you want to ensure that you're landing your final BFB on 370s (which is a waste of CT ticks, thus an adjustment of rotation timing to do X2 TTTT), 50/2.452 = 19.667 global cooldowns, or a 4.9 global cooldown delay each time, for the 2nd - 4th BFB to land your final BFB on 370s.

The next thing you need to consider is the impact of BFB on the rotation - delaying it by 5GCDs, the overall net potency is a decrease of around 600.

So not only are you having to delay each BFB by around 12s or 5GCDs, but the overall potency is a huge decrease, and its even lower if you have to consider you're doing x2 TTT in the end, which is an even further 150ish potency loss.

This in itself tells me it is not worth waiting at all, UNLESS you're withholding BFB to push phases or waiting to use them at certain times in the encounter. Of course this is in a stable environment, but holding BFB in the manner you described is not worth it.

Having said that, Potency Per Second is a metric used to gauge how effective one possible rotation impacts your overall DPS. If it weren't for PPS, we wouldn't of known MANY things about how to play the Dragoon and players would still be complaining how crap their DPS was if it weren't for people making models of our rotation.

PPS isn't something you follow like a Bible. They're just tools for you to keep in mind and execute accordingly. Its one thing being a Text-Book DPS, it's a completely different beast to be a skilled DPS who sets trends.

[rickyguo]

wait how is this situation of holding bfb an overall net potency decrease

if you get the same amount of bfbs in a fight, then isn't it only affected by on which part of your rotation you're using bfb on? isn't it then better to wait to use it at the part of the rotation with the most +potency if you know for sure you won't lose a bfb?

wheres the net potency decrease coming from

lets say that you can only get 6 dfds in t13 as it lasts shorter than 12 minutes, then you got like a sub 2 minute window to delay dfd in that fight and not lose any dfds. Even if you're only hitting one target ever, it's still a dps increase to delay dfd so that its being used during bfb if you know that all the delays combined won't lose you 1 dfd in the fight

[Sleigh]

Napkin math time.

I think what AyaLiz is describing is less about combining CDs in general and more about combining your final usages of non-GCDs together since together they're stronger than used individually. It applies to pretty much every class including tanks and healers, but can be hard to execute perfectly on a whim without repetition of a fight enough that you know what your timeline is - well, except for long CDs like DFD or pot, very easy to tell if you're gonna clear a fight within their recasts and you can adjust easily. It's sound advice honestly since sustained PPS on a skill, taking into account its recast and duration, doesn't mean much if it's not coming back up anyway and you can treat them differently.

[Dervy]

wheres the net potency decrease coming from

You kind of answered your own question. By delaying BFB by 5 GDCs to ensure that your last BFB is ending towards the end of the encounter (thus skewing your DPS results slightly), you're now using BFB on points of your rotation where you're not benefiting as much from BFBs.

Just to make numbers more simple, I'm only comparing the relative Potency Increase of BFB, not the entire potency because Big Numbers are scary at this time in the morning:

No Delay: 4475.274
Delayed: 4210.002
Difference: 265.272 Potency

I overestimated the Potency difference (napkin math), but it's still a difference, a significant one.

If I were accounting for my manual GCD clips so I'm always landing my BFBs on my highest potency abilities, like I usually do with my "no delay" scenario, we'd get this result:

No Delay: 4675.563
Delayed: 4412.706
Difference: 262.857

And the delay is actually greater than my napkin math. After your first BFB application at 7s (if it's before a CT), your hardwired BFB cooldown is then applied at 91s, which really skews your overall potency, significantly. This is why you should either: use BFB optimally to benefit phases in a raid, either right on cooldown, no more than a 1GCD wait, or no more than a 1s clip to to get that 0.5 additional PPS.

As for Dragonfire Dive and Spineshatter Dive? That's a completely different story.

Now - I could be wrong for some other instance where your clear time is shorter. There may well be a time were using BFB in another one of your raids would be more beneficial (lower/longer raid time, thus different GDC waits etc), but it'll only ever work in that specific situation, so you'd have to run the numbers yourself. But as a general rule of thumb, don't delay BFB as it's already timed very well.

I think what AyaLiz is describing is less about combining CDs in general and more about combining your final usages of non-GCDs together since together they're stronger than used individually. It applies to pretty much every class including tanks and healers, but can be hard to execute perfectly on a whim without repetition of a fight enough that you know what your timeline is - well, except for long CDs like DFD or pot, very easy to tell if you're gonna clear a fight within their recasts and you can adjust easily. It's sound advice honestly since sustained PPS on a skill, taking into account its recast and duration, doesn't mean much if it's not coming back up anyway and you can treat them differently.

And I agree. But this rule doesn't apply to Blood for Blood. I always delay my DFDs in Raids by a few seconds if it can benefit my overall raid DPS. Same goes for my Spineshatter Dive. As long as you fit in the amount of oCDs you should be, per instance, then it doesn't matter when you land them.

In fact, if you want to maximise your raid DPS even more, timing it so your oCDs matches up with maybe one or two of your BFBs is better - Not the other way around.

[rickyguo]

you always land perfectly on your most potent gcds in your t10 video because you don't have selene

if you factor in fey light then things go wrong and get messy and there are definitely situations where I have to delay 2gcds for my bfb to hit during ct/phleb/ft

[Dervy]

Yup and that's when it gets even more complicated to talk about - Then there's also the fact you can ask your Scholar to delay EoS to min/max your BFB potency at certain intervals. Lots of variables involved, so you'd need everything yourself to make sure it's concurrent with your raiding situation.

But, I can check the potency differences later on with a regular Selene going off every 60s if you'd like? After Live Letter XX of course

EDIT: New Dragoon Limit Break animation will be shown in the Heavnsward Benchmark... Go go Dataminers! Give us the Loots!

[Jonnycbad]

I'm a new level 50 with full wootz(donated by a friend).


I'm currently at:
STR:562
Acc:510
DET:289
Skill Speed:511

With the skill speed, I'm able to get 2 TT-VT-FT rotations during a single BFB while also weaving in a HT before the second one. I have a bunch of SS IV materia melded on my wootz gear(I'm ARM50) but people saying I have way too much SS. Should I replace with DET?

[Bloody]

Det>Crit>SS. With 378 SS, you can pop a BfB right before Chaos Thrust and still do TT-VT-(LS)-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT in an ideal/no lag or dodging required frame (done it on dummy and while learning t10, now I just have to practice setting that up consistently). I'm no expert, but from what little theorycraft building I've done and from what I've seen from the stalwarts here who have put in a whole hell of a lot more time than I into maxing out Dragoon statwise, by the time you get fully geared in i130 or penta-melded gear, you will want about 500 crit, 400 det, and 378 skill speed (assuming you also have a Black Truffle Risotto in there as well for even more boost).

Now since you are i110 from full crafted armor, I would say that it is more likely to have 450-500 crit, and like 350 det, while setting yourself up to lower your skill speed down to the 400ish range (everyone has their own preference).

The one thing I will say, however, is that come Heavensward when skill speed affects DoT damage in some shape or form, skill speed will become more important than it currently is for all classes (though to what extent we shall see).

[Jonnycbad]

I can't get that rotation because I use Phlebotemize right after CT, so I'm like 2s too late for that second FT under BFB