selling coil runs and primals

[Kosmos992k]

Honestly, if you don't want people commenting on the situation, you shouldn't have brought it up.
*snip* That's all the information we have. If there is more, we would be glad to hear it.

I brought it up becuase it is an example that fit the context. Comment away, I'm just as free asyou are to reply. There are many ways to reply without being judgemental about thinks you know very little of. As for more information, you need no more information, and in any case, given what you did with what I already posted, I would be foolish in the extreme to supply you with anything further.

Edit: The individuals concerned were well aware of how the FC views their conduct.

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

I brought it up becuase it is an example that fit the context. Comment away, I'm just as free asyou are to reply. There are many ways to reply without being judgemental about thinks you know very little of. As for more information, you need no more information, and in any case, given what you did with what I already posted, I would be foolish in the extreme to supply you with anything further.

Edit: The individuals concerned were well aware of how the FC views their conduct.

That's very ironic, coming from you. Your position were judged on what you provided. If you refuse to provide more information for your case, then you also should've kept silent in the first place. You said you kicked two people for run selling because you assume it ties with RMT. That is silly and misinformed. If you knew these guys were tied with RMT, that'd be a different situation, but that's not what you've said, and as such, don't try to pin the sin of ignorance on others.

[Kosmos992k]

That's very ironic, coming from you. Your position were judged on what you provided. If you refuse to provide more information for your case, then you also should've kept silent in the first place. You said you kicked two people for run selling because you assume it ties with RMT. That is silly and misinformed. If you knew these guys were tied with RMT, that'd be a different situation, but that's not what you've said, and as such, don't try to pin the sin of ignorance on others.

1) the situation as described is as much information as I will give.
2) anything beyond the bare facts is confidential - as it should be since the detail is a private matter between the individual players and my Free Company
3) I did not say that they had ties to RMT, the situation was to do with run selling, not RMT. read what was written and do not push your own version of facts you do not possess.
4) The sin of ignorance is quite willfully committed when someone decides to pass judgement and comment on a situation without the full facts at their disposal.

I have a few people in my FC who engage in ERP. They know that a good portion of the FC frowns upon it, but they also know its not explicitly against our FC rules. if it were, they wouldn't. There is a big difference between "knowing how the fc feels about their conduct", and "against the fc rules explicitly".

There are 4 things that govern people's behavior in any setting;
1) written rules
2) guiding principles
3) societies tolerance
4) personal conviction (ethics)

In a Free Company or guild, the first two elements are set by the FC/Guild leadership, the third is about how the membership in general reacts to things and the 4th is the player's personal responsibility and feeling.

My Free Company has 3 written rules;
1) respect all players
2) no drama
3) no cheating (including, but not limited to modding, RMT, glitching, etc...)

We also have guiding principles that are core to the FC, such as honesty, loyalty, integrity, and in particular helping others for the sake of helping - not personal gain.

These rules and principles have existed since the guild/FC was founded (before FFXIV). The members I have referenced were not only aware of these things, but they had helped to formulate how those rules were to be interpreted and how the principles extend the rules to cover situations not explicitly written into the rules.

See the trouble with written rules is that if you did not write a rule to cover an exact situation, you cannot apply the rule, and people can always exclaim that the written rule doesn't cover what happened. On the other hand broadly framed rules and principles cover all things, they do lead to situations where the judgement of the leadership is essential.

Since removing a member from a guild/Free Company is the most final of measures that can be used, kicking a member requires care and attention. Like many guilds/FCs we only remove people after multiple situations that break/go against the rules/principles of the FC - with the sole exceptions of anything that breaks the T&C of the game, and any extreme behavior that breaks the rules or principles of the guild.

The decision we made is not up for public review, and no further information about the situation will be provided to protect the privacy of the players involved. I will make it clear though that the players had not, to my knowledge, broken the SE T&C for FFXIV, nor were they summarily dismissed from the FC - so you can be well assured that there was a great deal of discussion and consideration by the FC leadership before the decision to remove a member was made.

Whether the particular kicking was warranted or not, is off topic, however, so we should get back on topic, of discussing the Ethical ramifications of selling runs.

Quite. I will say again, since you have indicated this is a discussion of ethics, the rules and principles that govern players in my FC put run selling in a category of behavior that is unethical for members of the FC. Whether or not others agree with that ethical stance is not my concern, it is simply the way our FC views that particular matter.

Personally, my viewpoint is "if it isn't against the terms of service, or against any Written rules from your server, fc, linkshell, or otherwise, it is ethical to do whatever you enjoy doing." next person?

I think you need to add that if it is not against the laws of the country you are resident in, since many countries now have written laws governing online acts and behavior (such as stalking). Further, unless you're aware of another definition of ethics, ethics are personal. Your ethics are individual to you and may/may not differ from mine. What matters is whether our individual ethics align with the ethics of the organizations/communities/society we are part of. If our ethics are not aligned with one or more of those, we may find ourselves being excluded by whichever organization, community or society our ethics differ from.

If I have to choice between help a random player to win a primal fight/a coil turn or sell it to them, I d prefer sell it to them, because I have NO BENEFIT in help those random player but if I sell it to them, I can make some k to kk.

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.

[Shneibel]

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.

Base on the quote, I can see you are looking down on ppl who sell the run & think your decision is righteous. It is fine if your opinion and your choice is different but if you can leave that righteous attitude out of this, it will be awesome. Because I sell the run does not mean I am not value friendship or refuse to help someone.The "satisfaction of helping someone", to me it sound more like you help other ppl for your own satisfaction and not help them because you want to help them.

The benefit you mention is a choice. I choice to sell the runs, earn me some gil to be able to archive my goal in game easier and faster, I see nothing wrong with this.

[Kallera]

snip.

People have many reasons why they don't like the idea of a Pay to win setup, the currency you use doesn't address every issue. They are also an eyesore in the PF to those looking for help and or groups to join.

[Darra]

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.

I've read a lot of what you've been saying, and concluded that you are in fact, worse than the sellers you find immoral. When people sell a service (which often times uses up their time, like a plumber that's come to fix your heating) for gil, they're participating in a transaction of a physical currency. You on the other hand, are doing it maybe because you believe in karma and want better karma, maybe you're religious and want your deity to see how much of a good boy/girl you are, maybe you do things to feel good about yourself, or as seems to be the case, you do it so you can act morally superior to others. Whatever the reason is, it's still a currency, good karma points, that tingly feeling of doing something good, having your deity tick more boxes in your favor for an after-life, or more examples to try beating people around the head with in a verbal discussion. Why this makes you worse, is that those of us that use a physical currency, we're not hiding what we're doing, you're blinding yourself to the currency you receive because it's not something you can spend in the real world that other people will accept.

[Slipikin]

I've read a lot of what you've been saying, and concluded that you are in fact, worse than the sellers you find immoral.

Ququ I didn't read Kosmos's original posts cause I really cba and I'm wondering why you're still posting in this thread...but nevertheless, if they want to do it for comradery and community spirit than they are entitled to that without you having to make it a personal dig against someone's intentions or beliefs. You have no clue from some forum posts who they are or what drives them.

Edit: I still heart you and your fatass cankles. :*

[Darra]

Ququ I didn't read Kosmos's original posts cause I really cba and I'm wondering why you're still posting in this thread...but nevertheless, if they want to do it for comradery and community spirit than they are entitled to that without you having to make it a personal dig against someone's intentions or beliefs. You have no clue from some forum posts who they are or what drives them.

Just defending myself :]

[Kosmos992k]

Just defending myself :]

Against what? I've made no attack against you at any time.

You wrote the following;

Kill selling, the latest crafted gear and materia prices are the 3 major markets for RMT gil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. After all, those are the 3 primary things that actually cost any amount of gil. Given that 90% of a server population can't make that much gil from crafting or selling kills themselves, coming across players dropping 20mil, 30mil, 100mil on a kill, it's pretty clear where that gil has come from, even if I've not been told by those doing the selling, or friends of the buyer, that the gil was purchased.

At this point you were quite clearly linking kill selling to RMT activity. I posted in reply to you, agreeing with your point, and illustrated it with an experience of my own. How was that an attack?

Fast forward to this post....

I've read a lot of what you've been saying, and concluded that you are in fact, worse than the sellers you find immoral.

If you've come to that conclusion, then your reading skills are really, really poor.

When people sell a service (which often times uses up their time, like a plumber that's come to fix your heating) for gil, they're participating in a transaction of a physical currency. You on the other hand, are doing it maybe because you believe in karma and want better karma, maybe you're religious and want your deity to see how much of a good boy/girl you are, maybe you do things to feel good about yourself, or as seems to be the case, you do it so you can act morally superior to others.

You know, it's really funny how someone who does things for the hell of it, to help people or to have fun - instead of personal profit - is attacked and called worse than RMT. In all honesty, I find your post very insulting, and extremely disappointing. It's disappointing because there is a view among many people IRL today that they will only get off their ass to do something if they are getting paid. You are displaying that attitude perfectly. What disappoints me most, is that you are so screwed up that you are actually attacking the motivations of someone who does things for reasons other than being paid to do them. I guess altruism is dead, along with all other forms of community or social responsibility.

Whatever the reason is, it's still a currency, good karma points, that tingly feeling of doing something good, having your deity tick more boxes in your favor for an after-life, or more examples to try beating people around the head with in a verbal discussion. Why this makes you worse, is that those of us that use a physical currency, we're not hiding what we're doing, you're blinding yourself to the currency you receive because it's not something you can spend in the real world that other people will accept.

Really? You're really so screwed up that because I do things for personal satisfaction, my friendship with others or to help the community in general, I'm somehow worse than the money grubbing RMTs? Is that really what you're saying here? You accuse me of hiding something, what is it that I am hiding? Are you simply unable to grasp the concept of being friendly and helping others for personal satisfaction or out of friendship, community spirit, social responsibility or civility? Is that it? Or are you so far gone that *everything* has to be quantified in terms of some 'currency' tangible or otherwise so that you can literally attack others regardless of how selfless their motivation?

Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable. I'm beginning to think that the bronies are right. Perhaps you need to spend some time watching brightly colored ponies delivering messages about friendship, community spirit and social responsibility so you can learn a few things.