8 man "raids" = final content?

[Nekrage]

I really don't understand this entire "more people = less skilled players" concept.

I led a 40 man raiding guild for a couple years in WoW(when it wasnt baby mode) where EVERYONE in the raid had to give it their all to get the content down. So assuming you have some half decent administration in your guild, you are going to DO SOMETHING ABOUT LEECHERS. The leecher type of players are VERY easy to spot and are going to perform badly in a 40 man raid, or and 8 man raid.

Obviously there will come a time where it becomes easier for content to be done and those type of players can succeed in raids giving less effort than those before them. That happens in both 8 man content, and 40 man content.

I cannot fathom why Square Enix would pander to those crying for 8 man content. That makes this game fall to the sidelines when it comes to other MMOs that give you a chance to enjoy content with a larger player base.

[Nekrage]

Continued due to character limit.

Like I said in the original post, you can still have your 8 man content for the more casual player base but for those who want to get a larger portion of their guild in content together, there is the 24 man content. Combine your 3 - 8 man raids and you are all set to go.

Square Enix, re-evaluate what the first M in MMO means to you.

8 Players ≠ Massive

[karateorangutang]

I just don't see SE doing this. A large draw of this game is because of its casual content.

Putting together 24 people doesn't fall in the range of the casual players.

Of course this is subjective to what you consider casual.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Here's a fun fact: Labyrinth of the Ancients was supposed to be a lot harder, but it got toned down because the devs realized having 24 random people with no prior knowledge of each other or how everyone plays would be a plain mess. It's not that Square CAN'T make challenging 24 man raid content, it's them not WANTING to do it due to them believing it just won't work because of the general player. We already seen the massive troll fests the current 24 man raids have and the commonplace that is rage quitting.

[Kiara]

I think it's a bigger issue actually orchestrating a fluid 24-man content that is actually challengive, meaningful and not allowing people to just leech away at it. We have yet to see a single 24-man raid that's more than just a loot fest where half the people half-afk watching Netflix.

The same company (albeit different teams) was able to create and execute a 64 Player Raid in Final Fantasy XI known as "Dynamis."

In the early years (pre-nerf), Dynamis was an exciting, engaging, challenging massive Raid that required coordination and team work to get through.

Dynamis-Xarcabard (early years), had a Main End Boss that was a challenge to reach, had other NMs that could drop important Gear / Items needed for End Game, and had Side Paths with Alternate NMs to kill to get drops for your Relic Quest (in that game, Relics were Hardcore and the Best Weapon for a long time), so it mattered.

Your entire Raid could get wiped out by a bad pull and aggro from additional groups if you weren't paying attention, so "no," there was no room to Netflix in the early years of this Raid.

It felt like a huge accomplishment to get through, and every Enemy killed (even "trash mobs") could drop Rare Currency that players could keep, or sell, or pool together to help someone accomplish their years-long Relic grind.

I realize it's a different time now, and people don't like this type of stuff any more. But I hope we get something akin to a Sky from XI, or Dynamis Lite perhaps in 3.0. It was great inviting multiple LSs, Friends, others on the Server to all group together and participate.

[Cidel]

Here's a fun fact: Labyrinth of the Ancients was supposed to be a lot harder, but it got toned down because the devs realized having 24 random people with no prior knowledge of each other or how everyone plays would be a plain mess. It's not that Square CAN'T make challenging 24 man raid content, it's them not WANTING to do it due to them believing it just won't work because of the general player. We already seen the massive troll fests the current 24 man raids have and the commonplace that is rage quitting.

I think that only pertains to content designed specifically for DF'ing with random strangers.

[Wintersandman]

Honestly the large scale end game raid is dying. You can look at most MMO's and the scale of the raids have been significantly getting reduced. Vanilla WoW started off with 40 man content then with the next expac it was 25 man. I just looked up WoW and they have flexible raids from 10-30. It scales with difficulty based on the number of players.

A: People need the instant gratification that they get in almost every other aspect. If I want something I just go buy it online, overnight it and have it the next day. No longer weeks worth of wait.

B: Organizing 24 people to do anything is a nightmare. Sure it is nice to show up. But I am on many different boards, clubs, etc and to coordinate that number of people is stressful frustrating and loses it's fun. People always show up the first week or two but once they don't see instant loot they quit attending. So by week 3 you are looking to fill 1/2 to 1/3 your raid.

C: 24 man content exists in the game. Your 3 groups can go do a WoD or ST just for grins. In fact you could queue up for Frontlines and have a real challenge where you have the ever changing player. Some days will be cake and some days will really test teamwork/skill.

While I hate to admit it. The WoW route of flexible raiding my be the best option.

[SpookyGhost]

I can barely trust 7 other people not to mess up, I'm not about to trust 23 of them.

[Whiston]

I can barely trust 7 other people not to mess up, I'm not about to trust 23 of them.

Not only do I agree with this, but most FC's will have a difficult time filling 24 spots with capable people.

Honest question to everyone campaigning for twenty four man raids: Have you, and twenty three other people in your FC or raid linkshells successfully completed the final coil of bahamut? I have a fairly large FC and we don't have three groups completing it yet. Many of our members don't even raid past second coil.
Most of the larger FCs really only have one main raid group and another progression type group.

Additionally, raid content that isn't "jump rope" is really just punching bag material. Also know as crystal tower series.

[Nekrage]

I can barely trust 7 other people not to mess up, I'm not about to trust 23 of them.

Sounds like you have a bad FC or a bad guild/raid leader.

Other players shouldn't suffer because some players are bad at the games they play.