8 man "raids" = final content?

[Nekrage]

I cannot fathom why the good people at Square Enix think that having 8 man dungeons be harder than the 24 man ones is the right direction to go.


I mean it only seems to make sense to reverse it.

You have your guild.
8 man raid group 1
8 man raid group 2
8 man raid group 3

All 3 of those groups hit up the easier 8 man raids and get some nice equipment.

Then all 3 groups combines to conquer the harder 24 man raid. 8x3 = 24 for those who cant do math.

I cannot fathom why anyone would want to split up PERMANENTLY. You do the 24 mans, then split up for the 8 mans and never see the other 16 players again.


Really just seems like they have the formula for the perfect UNIQUE endgame pve system...they wrote the formula backwards.

Does anyone have any sound reasoning behind their choice regarding 8 mans being the true endgame?

[SarcasmMisser]

It's so baddies can't hide in larger groups.

[Ultear_Milkovich]

1. Content has to be put into DF at some point, having 8 ppl instead of 24 means faster queues. See what happened with CT 1 before they did the weekly quest. DF was never able to find more than 12 guys.

2. 24 man raids require more design. And making a difficult 24 man fight seems not easy. We never seen a "hard" 24 man fight. I cant imagine a FCOB "24" without a big mess or at least a lot of work for the devs.

3. Not every FC has 24 raiders. 8 was appropriate because even small FCs with 6 ppl were able to pick up a couple of fillers and go. A 24 man raid will prevent a lot of small FCs from raiding. Or force them to merge / change the way they want their FF experience just to be compliant with the raid format. Being social is part of a MMO, but if you prefer 10 ppl FCs its fine. Especially if you re from a small community like those finnish or greek FCs we have here. You shouldnt have to be in a big FC (big enough to have 24 raiders at the same time) to enjoy FF14.

[Cidel]

1. Content has to be put into DF at some point, having 8 ppl instead of 24 means faster queues. See what happened with CT 1 before they did the weekly quest. DF was never able to find more than 12 guys.

Just because it has to be put in the DF eventually doesn't mean they should cut down the amount of participating players for queue-speed's sake. In recent memory, I've had WoD queues pop in mere seconds on healer while that same day the Expert Roulette has taken 10 minutes+. It has more to do with the freshness of the content, not the queue size, I think.

2. 24 man raids require more design. And making a difficult 24 man fight seems not easy. We never seen a "hard" 24 man fight. I cant imagine a FCOB "24" without a big mess or at least a lot of work for the devs.

Why does a 24-man raid need to be "team jump rope" like FCOB? Do people really foresee one person in an alliance dying and then the fight suddenly spirals out of control? I also don't like how a lot of people "dreading" the thought of any 24-man end-game content and it can be nothing but a single boss littered with mechanics; I think Coil (and WoD/ST) very well might have conditioned some players to think that is all we can have (This latest 2.55 story trial is a wonderful attempt to break away from that).

3. Not every FC has 24 raiders. 8 was appropriate because even small FCs with 6 ppl were able to pick up a couple of fillers and go. A 24 man raid will prevent a lot of small FCs from raiding....

I find so much wrong with this claim. First of all, I find fault in any idea that we should be held back because there are people whose "FC don't have the numbers." If that's even a perceived problem, join a Linkshell (maybe people have heard of them outside of being for Hunts?) that is dedicated to said content. Everyone keeps their own FCs and can run content with other players with the same interests. Why do you think you need to be in a 24+ man FC to participate in content tailored for 3 parties? On the other side of the coin, the devs have no problems implementing content for 8 (or small FCs, if you want to remain on the subject) with a participation limiter/lockout that is less than desirable for those trying to include as much of their FC as possible in that content. You shouldn't have to belong to an 8-man static to enjoy relevant endgame and enjoy the "MM" in "MMO."

SE had no problem releasing content only for FCs who were fortunate enough to own a house. I would find it hypocritical should they continue to take a stance that they can't make content for larger groups because "some FCs are too small to do them." We might as well lose Linkshells right then and there.

It's so baddies can't hide in larger groups.

Sarcasm aside, I can spot any baddy in any of the Crystal Tower raids rather quickly.

[Nekrage]

Wow Cidel, one of the most well spoken posts I have seen in a LONG time.


My reaction while reading it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZHvd0ks7Es

[ShaneDawn]

The more people there are, the more leeway there is for bads to be carried. 8 is a good number to have challengive yet meaningful mechanics. The more spoons you throw into the soup, the messier it gets (see wod etc.).

Imo they could even add 4 man light raids to really challenge both one's individual and team contribution the maximum.

As mentioned, it's hard to optimize a 24-man so it proves a meaningful challenge for everyone. And see how many people were already mental about how hard it was for them to fit in a 8 person static? 24 man raids would mostly be a big FC thing.

[SarcasmMisser]

The more people there are, the more leeway there is for bads to be carried. 8 is a good number to have challengive yet meaningful mechanics. The more spoons you throw into the soup, the messier it gets (see wod etc.).

Considering the people advocating this are saying stuff like this.

Why does a 24-man raid need to be "team jump rope" like FCOB? Do people really foresee one person in an alliance dying and then the fight suddenly spirals out of control?

I think they want to hide in a group.

[Cidel]

Well alright then, word of God: We can't have relevant 24-man end game content because everyone would be too paranoid that there are bad people hiding in the group and its impossible to deal with them.

Discussion over.

[ShaneDawn]

I think it's a bigger issue actually orchestrating a fluid 24-man content that is actually challengive, meaningful and not allowing people to just leech away at it. We have yet to see a single 24-man raid that's more than just a loot fest where half the people half-afk watching Netflix.

I don't say they can't make it happen, but they haven't so far, so will they? I'm all in for 24-man raids as well, as long as there's alternatives out there and they're actual raids and not faceroll loot fests.

But the fact remains there. There's a certain group mentality; the more people there are, the higher the temptation to leech off of others. The potential leeway to carry people through hardcore content is not desirable.

[Cidel]

I think it's a bigger issue actually orchestrating a fluid 24-man content that is actually challengive, meaningful and not allowing people to just leech away at it. We have yet to see a single 24-man raid that's more than just a loot fest where half the people half-afk watching Netflix.

I don't say they can't make it happen, but they haven't so far, so will they? I'm all in for 24-man raids as well, as long as there's alternatives out there and they're actual raids and not faceroll loot fests.

But the fact remains there. There's a certain group mentality; the more people there are, the higher the temptation to leech off of others. The potential leeway to carry people through hardcore content is not desirable.

Personally, I think they have the ability to make it happen. And it's possible to make it challenging without it being "24 people vs 1 mob with trash adds and memorized mechanics." Saying "they haven't done it yet, so will they?" is a pretty weak argument given something like not having any real flying mounts in 2.0 means we shouldn't want any in 3.0 (I know it's confirmed, but what if it wasn't yet?) The Steps of Faith have shown that the devs can get creative and make content that is beyond mechanics memorization and dodgefests . I'm not (and I don't think the TC is) asking for faceroll loot-fests in content intended for groups larger than one full-party; I would like for them to make content with some degree of challenge for something other than 8-man parties that requires communication and teamwork that usually isn't found in DF and let FCs and Linkshells be relevant for things other than hunts and housing fluff. Heck I would be satisfied if they even got adventurous and did end-game things for 4-man groups or 16.

World of Darkness seems to be a snoozefest because it was designed to be done through the DF, leechers and all. It doesn't even drop the best ilvl (we need to really shy away from this vertical system IMHO) gear aside from some rare gems that have better secondary stats than the Ironworks and Dreadwyrm sets. Why are people so paranoid and think there is absolutely no way to deal with "leechers?" I can guarantee in a PF setting, these people lacking cooperation and failing to perform their role will be removed (how is that any different from what happens in 8-man groups?) In LS and FC environments, it can be (should be) dealt with tactfully since ideally participants should feel a little more committed.

Or are people afraid that in groups of more than 8 people, there will be people bringing the group down and nobody would be able to identify the broken cog(s)?