Suggestion to revoke the the bonus if new player leave the dungeon or raid.

[Gillionaire]

Simply put, because they're the ones who are often left behind as the rest of us progress.

It's easy to forget that we have to start somewhere and while many of us were able to enjoy the story because we leveled alongside people doing the same quests at the same time, newcomers don't have that luxury. They enter a game where people only run low level dungeons because they can get high-end rewards, and are forced into speed runs they're ill-equipped to handle or made to skip every cutscene in the game because the tanks have rushed on ahead.

I agree that something needs to be done to make this game more friendly towards new players, though at this point it's difficult to say what can be done. Most of the problem isn't the mechanics it's down to player attitudes and changing those is never an easy task.

I started playing in December during 2.4. I never had anybody hold my hands and I didn't expect them to.

Honestly, if I needed hand holding I could've asked my FC or made my own damn party.
There's no reason to get special treatment just because you're new..

I'm not saying you shouldn't provide a warm, welcoming environment to fresh faces.. But that can't be mandated by the game system. If you're the kind of person that takes charge and takes care of newcomers, you'll be rewarded for your own merits, game does not have to force people into playing big brother.

IMO, nothing needs to be done about the new players, if they like the game, they stick around. If they don't, they won't. Simple as that. I'm not opposed to helping new players, I've handed out quite a bit of things here and there to new players I've met just running around town. But if they DEMAND they get something because they're new? You're not getting a 2 gil potion out of me, take your sense of entitlement elsewhere.


And I say this as somebody who can honestly say has never taken a tip for crafting (unless offered by the other person first) or melding. I even provide my own carbonized matter most of the time when people do their pre-relic meld because they don't know how the process works. I've even walked to the MB to buy a full stack of carbon matter and just gave the whole stack to the other person so his FC could make use of it (his FC was a small low rank FC) I can and do help people, but only on my own accord. Moment SE mandates it, that's when I'll start putting price tags on all my voluntary services I currently offer for free.

[Gurpsmeister]

Why do they need their own system? I have a ton of friends that play this game, some recent additions some since 1.0. In fact most recently a guy joined my fc from scratch, leveled himself to 50, learned his fights, earned his gear and earned a spot in our FC static group. "Newbies" are just players like anyone else, there's no difference between a Veteran and a newbie. It's all in attitude I agree with that. If you're attitude is "I'm new hand hold me" then you're always going to be new and you're always going to be treated badly. If you're attitude is I'm new..but I'll learn. Then you can expect respect and help. The game already has a perfectly viable system in place, though at this point a soldiery bonus is obsolete.

The bonus is there to encourage veteran players to revisit content so that new players don't have to rot in a queue forever. It's not there for veterans to hold your hand or coddle you. This game is literally like every other MMO out there. Earn your keep, earn your spot, earn your respect. Entitlement creates a bad community..at least contributes.

I'm not saying there aren't people on the other side of things too, but more often then not when I see people claiming to be bullied it's that a group stood up and said no to carrying them. Frankly most of the issues are caused by the 'newbie' when it comes to bullying and I don't think giving them the ability to control the bonus directly is going to help them at all. In fact I wager it empties the queues and then what?

[Krr]

I'm not saying you shouldn't provide a warm, welcoming environment to fresh faces.. But that can't be mandated by the game system.

Ehh. Every action is a cost->reward structure, so you really can.

If someone's XP were converted to tomes, would they do fullclears of low level dungeons instead of speedruns? Maybe, if they're interested in more tomes! If I got 100 bonus sol for killing Twintania and it was feasibly possible to carry a newbie through that fight with pugs...hey, that already happens now! But in later content - T9, FCOB - it does the opposite - 100 sol is a pretty good flag that someone you don't personally know is going to crash your party, and not be worth the 'risk' to take along, so to speak. Accordingly, clears are sold and players set a price - in gil - that makes the risk of carrying a newbie "worth it".

so, the question is not "how do we force vets to give new players handouts", the question is, "how do we make vets feel the reward of giving new players a chance outweighs the risk in time wasted?" and frankly, i think it's one worth pursuing - additional rewards for helpin' aren't going to force insular vets to change their game, but it will encourage more to leave their bubbles and not erect firewalls against level 50 newbies who aren't "dedicated enough" to put up with weird side-eyes from pubbies, which like - yeah, it happens, and it sucks, and it's bad for the game and it's bad for everyone.

tbqh though, awkward mechanics revolving around votekicks aren't the solution to anything, discounting praetorium cutscene crapfests

[Gardes]

so, the question is not "how do we force vets to give new players handouts", the question is, "how do we make vets feel the reward of giving new players a chance outweighs the risk in time wasted?" and frankly, i think it's one worth pursuing

No amount of reward that isn't game breaking is going to be worth the risk because the amount of effort of 'putting up' with the first timer in harder fights potentially ranges from minimal to monumental. The game keeps neutering its own skill check gating in the name of easing up of new comers' instant gratification to the point where players can get all the way to t9 without actually knowing their own class (as you said, a df group in t5 can ignore a random player's zero contribution and push him into the t6-t9 zone). It's especially worse when a first time can basically kill other players in the group for their ignorance/inexperience with battle mechanics that are placed in the later phases of battle.

[Krr]

The game keeps neutering its own skill check gating in the name of easing up of new comers' instant gratification

let's be frank here, it's more about veterans' instant gratification. you find me the person who'd put up with doing twintania in its 2.0 state for something like 4 hours just to get a piece of i95 gear in the patch of our lord 2.5. yeah there's the handful of maybe 20 players per server who hadn't cleared twintania yet and probably aren't even all capable online at the same time to do it together much less finding each other in the first place that might bust their asses if you asked, but uh, stark minority

hell, not being able to find t9 learning groups is already endemic on many servers (and has been for months), because it's in the dead zone of "too hard to backtrack and demonstrate" but "too old to be worth doing because seriously screw putting up with divebombs for an i115." left in that deadzone you basically just end up with "players in fcob" and "players who will never go to fcob unless their fc carries them or they buy a run"

gating puggos with raid-level coordination checks doesn't really do what you'd think it does, is what I'm trying to say here, and like 90% of these fights aren't really about individual skill but executing group dance routines(*)

(*until your progression group lands in t13 and bahamut starts hitting your tank for like 8k unmitigated)

[Gardes]

let's be frank here, it's more about veterans' instant gratification. you find me the person who'd put up with doing twintania in its 2.0 state for something like 4 hours just to get a piece of i95 gear in the patch of our lord 2.5. it's like, the handful of 20 players per server who hadn't cleared twintania yet and probably aren't even all capable online at the same time to do it together much less finding each other in the first place

It's a problem with the system in the general. The system is trying to pit a first timer with veterans who are complete strangers who have no connection to each other so the system has to have bait to catch veterans quickly so that new players do not have to do any social 'jostling' and just get wins. Sometimes just making friends is enough (don't even know why you're writing that getting your fc to help you is something that you resort to after you've exhausted your pug/df options).

[Aeyis]

I started playing in December during 2.4. I never had anybody hold my hands and I didn't expect them to.

While true, I'll give my personal experience as a counter argument.
Played mmos for nigh on.. 14 years? Played healer in endgame in wow for years.
As such I had no problems healing in dungeons at all, didnt get anyone killed, no wipes.


Untill Aurum Vale. Had 2 groups that wiped, one even kicked me (but I got back in, heh)
Why? Because the people in those groups had zero respect for anyone that wasnt used to doing it their way.

The first groups tank pulled 12 mobs, couldnt hold aggro because he only used a single flash, and took a trucks worth of damage because he didnt use cooldowns. Apparently it was the healers vault for ''not knowing how to ride aggro'' and not being used to speed runs.

Second group, we wiped a lot at the first boss. Why? Well noone actually mentioned any of the boss abilities despite being asked. The boss abilities are rather killer there.


Now those 2 runs put me off from running dungeons for a couple of weeks. And I have a good deal of experience with bad groups as it is. I can't imagine what its like for someone thats not just new to the game, but new to mmos.


While ''hand holding'' isnt needed in this game, I agree, peoples obstinate attitude often makes dungeons and what not take far longer/become less enjoyable because they dont think to consider those that are new to it.

Doesn't WoW have a regular mode and then a Hard Mode feature of the exact same dungeon?

I'm afraid you would still see plenty of ''newbies'' in the hard mode, and plenty of ''respectless elite'' in normal mode. Curse of the dungeon finder system.

[Mistoltin]

x.

That's why you have the ability to leave.
So you get a lock out timer, so what. It's like, what, 15 minutes? Grab something to eat and watch a youtube video or two, it's the luck of the draw and it won't kill you.
There are all kinds of people out in the world, some are assholes, some are stubborn, some only want to do things their way and some won't like the way you do things. Some things they want will work, some won't.

The only constant in all of these situations are you, and because of that it's on you as to how you deal with the situation, and to be honest, in a multiplayer video game, mind you, the optimal solution is just to leave because there's always room elsewhere that will probably be more than happy to have you.

[Gillionaire]

snip

Don't get me wrong, I've made plenty of mistakes in this game and wiped many many parties.. Even got kicked a few times also.

My first time in DD, I pulled 2 groups of mobs like I usually do, and started tanking them. Healer couldn't keep up because I wasn't staying in the circle, of course he couldn't.. I didn't know this as I was doing it, so we wiped.. I think I wiped them twice and they started to speak up calling me noob and telling me what to do.
Did I take offense to that? No, I f'd up, it's MY fault, I'm not gonna get butt hurt over people telling me I'm doing things wrong.

People may not say it in the nicest of ways and sometimes they skip over the explanation entirely.. but we live in a day and age where we can figure out the answers with a little bit of effort.
So I get kicked from the group, I go online and figure out what I did wrong and adjust accordingly. We can all do that..

What I'm trying to say is that as a mature person, you should be able to deal with a bit of criticism from complete strangers and even speak out if you think you're being abused.. They're complete strangers, if you've met them through DF, you'll probably never even see them ever again, I don't know how people can get so butt hurt over that or feel threatened even.. It's online, take charge of what happens.


I am of the opinion, you just deal with what you get..
In some duties, SE doesn't allow people to go on while your party member's watching a cutscene (beginning of 4 player dungeons, trials). In some, they allow people to go on ahead.
I get annoyed when somebody's watching cut scenes in Ifrit HM or EX because I know they've already seen it.. but I'm not going to argue about it to whoever chooses to watch the cut scene.

I can't tell other people how to play their game and I don't.. But don't tell ME how to play MY game either. If the game allows it and you think it's wrong, take it up with SE and tell them to change the design.. Don't blame the people for playing within a set of boundaries and rules. Our behaviors are shaped by that.

That said, it's all about the attitude.. I've had noobs in my group where I've slowed down the runs and waited around for people to watch cut scenes or just slow down the run in general pulling small packs and do full runs to accommodate. But ONLY if I'm asked.. Don't expect me to be a mind reader and figure out that you're new. It's not my job to do a search info on your character and do a gear check to figure out if you're new or not.

People are definitely too kick-happy currently.

Hell I agree that people are too kick happy. I was goofing around in ST doing manderville in front of bosses and waiting until the last second to heal etc.. I still kept everybody alive though and then some! even res'd other alliances.. (ST is a joke..) we had no problem getting the content done.. But the tank in the group had no sense of humor and kicked me while we were fighting Xande.. But oh well, I'm not gonna cry over it nor am I gonna stop queueing for dungeons completely because of being in a group with try hards.. I am still a little bitter But I can handle a little bit of disappointment..

TLDR:

I'm not your mommy and you're not mine. We're all grown ass adults here and we should be able to act as such.
No, SE doesn't have to be our mommy either!