Primals, and their nature?

[Nalien]

You know what I don't get about Odin? If the person who defeated him claims his sword and thus gets tempered... Well firstly, we cannot be tempered due to the Echo, so how's that even happening? Secondly... If the person who defeats him somehow gets tempered and "becomes" Odin... How can that same person fight Odin during the FATE when they should be Odin?

Primal : Midgardsormr
First Encountered:
Trial: N/A / Keeper of the Lake (but it's not a trial, nor is he truly defeated . . . )
process of summoning: Louisoiz Leveilleur had citizens accross Eorzea praying for a solution to the war with Garlemald, and he channelled their prayers into summoning the most powerful Primal of all time, Midgardsormr, after the battle Midgardsormr collapsed and fell down in the lands of Mor Dhona, wrapped around the Garlean vessel ______.

Midgardsormr isn't a Primal, and that never happened. You seem to be mixing up 1.0s intro with 2.0s; Lou wasn't around during the Battle of Silvertear Skies, nobody prayed for a solution to Garlemalds advance (except the Beast Tribes). 2.0s intro had Lou and the Circle of Knowing praying to the Twelve for a solution to Dalamud crashing into them. Midgardsormr just saw Garlemald flying over his lake and decided to kick their butt. I strongly suspect this was also due to the Garleans attempting to recreate Crystal Tower around the same time with Bozja Citadel; They attempt to recreate it to call down Dalamud then head to the original Towers resting place? Yeah...

[Mishini_Dracoto]

You know what I don't get about Odin? If the person who defeated him claims his sword and thus gets tempered... Well firstly, we cannot be tempered due to the Echo, so how's that even happening? Secondly... If the person who defeats him somehow gets tempered and "becomes" Odin... How can that same person fight Odin during the FATE when they should be Odin?

Have you not completed the Trial for Odin yet? It answers those questions.

Altough, interesting, as now we know WHY Odin has somebodies name every day when he spawns. And technicall yes, that's a continuity error, but I still think it's really interesting. And you know what, I don't know a single person who had ever suggested the reason players names were there was because they actually WERE Odin because they were possessed by Zantetsuken.

Anyway, in the Trial,

Zantetsuken gets tossed away somewhere upon Odin's defeat. Another member of the team from Gridania found it and picked up the blade, and kills the rest of his search party. Odin trolls the black Shroud once again.

[Nalien]

Have you not completed the Trial for Odin yet? It answers those questions.

Yes, and no it doesn't.

It explained that Zantesuken tempered people upon Odins defeat. For the Trial, it ended up tempering an NPC to keep the FATE around. For the FATE, we get tempered. Whoever gets the kill shot is tempered, that's why Odin takes their name and form the next time he spawns. That is impossible; The Echo is meant to protect us from tempering. We can also fight ourselves, I get the kill shot, claim Zantesuken and become Odin (he looks just like me, has my name as a title), then fight the Odin which is meant to be me. Those are both two massive inconsistence which aren't explained, worse they're created by the Trial story.

They could have vastly improved the Odin Trial story if they'd simply found the NPC who stole Zantesuken dead as well, thrown in a shot of the new Odin looking just like our character, concluding that the NPC sacrificed himself to Zantesuken to resummon the knight/Odin. Then just explain that the knight/Odin takes on the form of whomever bested him either as a sign of respect or to increase his power, with the knight part of Odin being somewhat similar to Egis; You defeat Odin, your Aether is imprinted, Zantesuken then summons You-Egi as its new Odin.

[treuhavik]

Is it tempering though, or more akin to possession? Lady Iceheart is an echo user as well but is still able to become host to Shiva.

Odin is the primal, Zantetsuken is it's prison. The hapless who take hold the sword are releasing Odin into them. It requires no worshipers because it's already summoned and wont until the sword itself is destroyed and the primal returned to aether.

[Belhi]

My point still would stand. Its not simply belief that gives a primal power. It is worship or at the very least devotion. Lots of people believe in Ifrit, Garuda and Titan but they don't draw power from those beliefs. Remember how Garuda in the Story Mode regenerated almost instantly after we had defeated her because of the Ixal's prayers?

Odin has no worshipers regardless of his true form and he only ever seems to temper one individual. This means Odin seems to operate with only one half of the usual requirements every other Primal we have seen needed. Even Bahamut had all those dragons in tubes.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

Midgardsormr isn't a Primal, and that never happened. You seem to be mixing up 1.0s intro with 2.0s; Yeah...

I may be mistaken, and I will have to figure out where I got that impression from. I have a distinct impression regarding either Keeper of the Lake, or possible lore revealed fom coils, that the result of Louisoix's summoning was that he had summoned Midgardsormr. Maybe I mis-interepreted the events. I also haven't gotten around to doing FCoB since my static broke before 2.4.

[Nalien]

Is it tempering though, or more akin to possession? Lady Iceheart is an echo user as well but is still able to become host to Shiva.

It would have to be a forceful possession; We're not willingly summoning a Primal like Iceheart. If it's forceful then it seems awfully similar to tempering. Then there is the fact that Iceheart underwent a transformation while playing host for Shiva, the reverse is true for Odin; A Lalafell bests him, he transforms into a Lalafell. A Miqo'te bests him, he becomes a cat girl (Odin and Noah would get on well).

...

OK, that was a joke, but... Noah seems to have copied Odin... That's... Interesting...

[treuhavik]

Odin has no worshipers regardless of his true form and he only ever seems to temper one individual. This means Odin seems to operate with only one half of the usual requirements every other Primal we have seen needed. Even Bahamut had all those dragons in tubes.

I believe that once a primal is summoned there is no further need to provide it with worship/prayer/hope/wishes and that the emprisoned Mericydians were there to provide addtional power to Bahamut to be converted for the Crystal Tower. Either that or, when a primal is damaged, it is unable to regenerate, thus prayer and additional aether can be used to mend the primal.

Then there is the fact that Iceheart underwent a transformation while playing host for Shiva, the reverse is true for Odin

Ah, but did Shiva not resemble an Elezen woman?

[Nalien]

Ah, but did Shiva not resemble an Elezen woman?

True, but we could go round with that forever, considering her potential origin would mark her as an Elezen anyway.

Still, for an Elezen to Elezen transformation, Shiva was more than just a change of clothes for Iceheart, the two look distinct from each other. Same isn't true for Odin, he literally just ends up as your character model in his armor. Even if it was the case that Odin found a loophole to effectively temper us, it still wouldn't explain how we can then be in two places at the same time when we fight him when he is us.

Really wish they went with the "You defeated Odin. Zantetsuken summons You-Egi!" route with Odin. It just covers all the plot holes. Would have made for a pretty epic closing cutscene too, though I guess the trial only came about due to popular demand, so there's only so much they could have done with it.

I may be mistaken, and I will have to figure out where I got that impression from. I have a distinct impression regarding either Keeper of the Lake, or possible lore revealed fom coils, that the result of Louisoix's summoning was that he had summoned Midgardsormr. Maybe I mis-interepreted the events. I also haven't gotten around to doing FCoB since my static broke before 2.4.

The dates simply don't align; The Battle of Silvertear Skies, where Midgardsormr fell, happened before Lou came to Eorzea. Midgardsormr also existed long before Lou would even have been born, if he is the father to Nidhogg then Midgardsormr pre-dates Ishgard at the very least. If myth is to be believed he pre-dates man completely, though I refuse to believe that just because I cannot see Allag rising to power with Middy right there... They built a voidgate-opening tower right next to his lake... Either he didn't exist at the time or we're missing a lot of context...

[treuhavik]

If myth is to be believed he pre-dates man completely, though I refuse to believe that just because I cannot see Allag rising to power with Middy right there... They built a voidgate-opening tower right next to his lake... Either he didn't exist at the time or we're missing a lot of context...

I sampled this quote in my first post, which probably went unread by most, but I'll post the full one here.

There was the birth of Althyk, god of time among the Twelve, and in turn, His younger sister Nymeia, goddess of fate. And then there was water, and through it the Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden. Much later, with the arrival of man, would Midgardsormr be worshipped as the guardian deity of Silvertear Falls.

Midgarsormr's job was to guard the lake and the fount of aether within. Either his duty prevented him from intervening or he straight up didn't care about his great great great great great great grandchildren, or he was sleeping. Dragons like sleep.