Primals, and their nature?

[Ioradin]

Hey all,

I have a few (and probably easy to answer...) questions regarding Primals and the summoning of such. I know that there's a lot of established lore, and some interestingly confined contexts in which a Primal is supposed to be summoned.

In most of the cases that we've gotten to see, thus far, Primals are brought about by the belief in said entities. So, for instance, Ifrit was a legend, before his initial summoning. Through a mass gathering, ritual sacrifices and Temperings, as well as a massive number of aetheryte crystals, the Primal is brought forth into the realm of the tangible.

All of these pretexts were thrown out the window, when Moggle Mogg came about, and even more-so, when Shiva was summoned, in one of the more recent patches.

[Ioradin]

The developers have already stated that the upcoming Primals in 3.0 will leave us questioning the very nature of Primals, and how they're summoned, but I'd actually like to know more about the Primals we already have.

What I mean, in this regard, is where does the Legend start?

Due to what we've come to understand about Primals, the belief in said entity has to already exist... this brings up some interesting thoughts, along these lines.

In most cases, legend is born out of fact, and in the case of the Primals, that's taken one step further, and Fact is born out of Legend. However, most social and mythological phenomena are still rooted in history and factual persons, places, or events.

What does that mean for the Beast Tribes?

To have a rooted interest in the summoning of these entities, there'd need to have been some sort of historical basis upon which they could rest their 'image' of the Primals, and the hope that they could summon one.

The best case I've seen, thus far (oddly enough), of a Primal's 'history' being explained in any sort of detail, is Shiva. Her history, and the fact that she was once a mortal, further roots my thoughts on the matter...

In this case, we see a very well detailed encounter, and timeline of events leading to the Shiva that we now see in the Primal Encounter.

I realize that I'm probably rambling, and digging into territory that's already been discussed, but it's something that I've found -very- little lore on (at least in such a specific nature).

As such, I'd love to see what you other Lore-Bugs out there think...

[Belhi]

I think its a complex questions and we are quite far from the answer. In game the core method of identifying some thing as a primal seems to be it's aetheric signature. Shiva, while very different to what we knew about primals, still had the aetheric properties of a primal.

The core things needed seem to be worship or prayer and a lot of concentrated aether, usually in the form of crystals. Odin seems an odd case out and I'd be curious to find out exactly why he is different in this regard.

[Sapphic]

The core things needed seem to be worship or prayer and a lot of concentrated aether, usually in the form of crystals. Odin seems an odd case out and I'd be curious to find out exactly why he is different in this regard.

The Odin trial quest explains that. Odin is not the person, it's the sword. The person wielding it is the one who finds and picks it up after defeatnig the previous Wielder and then besomes tempered by the sword. Which explains why the "Odin" assumes the form of the person who defeats them. As it's the wielder that gets defeated, not the sword, means Odin is never banished from the realm.

The sword was sealed within Urths Gift. Calamity freed it to be found and thus Odin rides again.

[Anonymoose]

What I mean, in this regard, is where does the Legend start?

This is one of the things we still debate. Over time, we've narrowed down our possibilities quite a bit (I remember one of my first theories was that primals reached across from another realm and latched on to a society, manipulating them so they'd be needed in order to get them to summon them here, where they can eat all the aether, lol.) Since then, we've found some patterns, but not all of our answers.

I actually think I need to go back to the very beginning and start over, because a lot of my assumptions hinge on the idea that primals cannot exist if the aether is in balance. I've said that so many times that I don't even remember the quote that led me there.Indeed, I started to become paranoid that I made the whole thing up, accidentally moving fanon to assumed canon. Many mentions simply say that the world needs to be in chaos, which need not mean anything aetherial is wrong, just that people are desperate. Doing some fact-checking, I came across this from the French client:

Mais lorsque l'ordre qui régit notre univers est troublé, alors les hommes-bêtes sont capables d'invoquer leurs dieux et de les faire venir dans notre monde.
But when the order that governs our universe is disturbed, then the beastmen are able to invoke their gods and bring them into this world.

So - perhaps I'm not crazy, perhaps I'll find that quote, but I really need to start over with a fresh POV. As I go, maybe I can make a full summary of the collected information from <flips page> two hundred instances? It uh... it might be a bit.

That said, the part you're asking about - the what came first part - is still very, very open to debate.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

What we Could / Should do, is either Start a Thread / wiki compiling known information about either Each Primal, or all the Primals, anything that we could possible associate as being a Primal, throw in there, and see if i matches up to the others. Maybe people BELIEVE some creatures are primals, when in truth, they are not. We are getting our knowledge from Eorzeans . . . who says their knowledge is infallible?

I would tentatively recommend the following template to get started. (People who wanna upload / share their Lore would be appreciate)

Primal :
First Encountered:
Trial:
process of summoning:

Additional Lore / known facts:

I posted one such example below, and realized, I'm probably not a good person to start this style of information collecting & compiling, since I'm not super active in the Lore Forums.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

Primal : Ifrit
First Encountered: ??
Trial: Bowl of Embers.
process of summoning: The Amal'jaa gather fire crystals, and through prayer and worship, and offering ribues of fire crysals, Ifrit comes into being to fight for the Amal'jaa and defeat the Warrior of Light.

Additional Lore / known facts: The Amal'jaa have worshipped Ifrit for all of the known recorded history. Ifrit is a fire-aspected being, and all of his atacks are fire-based.


Primal : Shiva
First Encountered: x Astral Era
Trial: Akh Afah Amphitheatre
process of summoning: The Lady of Ice, an elezen, who little is known about, through her own sheer force of Will and Ice Crystals (no others involved with summoning) Called upon Saint Shiva. Shiva usurped the body of the Elezen, insead of being formed purely on Aether.

Additional Lore / known facts: Shiva is known as a Heretic for having laid down with Dragons. In X Era it was recorded that she was an Elezen. It is possible that the lady of ice is an actual descendant of Shiva, which perhaps is why she could embody the Primal. Perhaps it is merely because she had a strong enough will to do it herself is the reason why she could summn Shiva into herself. It is also speculated that Shiva is the mother to the coming PC Race Au Ra, who appear to be half dragons. If that was the case though, wouldn't we expect Yugiri to play a more major role regarding this Primal?

Primal : Midgardsormr
First Encountered:
Trial: N/A / Keeper of the Lake (but it's not a trial, nor is he truly defeated . . . )
process of summoning: Louisoiz Leveilleur had citizens accross Eorzea praying for a solution to the war with Garlemald, and he channelled their prayers into summoning the most powerful Primal of all time, Midgardsormr, after the battle Midgardsormr collapsed and fell down in the lands of Mor Dhona, wrapped around the Garlean vessel ______.

Additional Lore / known facts: It recently became known that Midgardsormr was never defeated, the Dragon laid dormant and is confronted during the instance Keeper of the Lake where he reveils information about why he has awoke, and a little about what that means for Eorzeans. he also has some sort of contract with Hydaelen, which meant that he could not kill the Warrior of Light. He is also so powerful he can just whimsically create a minion to stalk you and gather information for himself.

[Belhi]

The Odin trial quest explains that. Odin is not the person, it's the sword. The person wielding it is the one who finds and picks it up after defeatnig the previous Wielder and then besomes tempered by the sword. Which explains why the "Odin" assumes the form of the person who defeats them. As it's the wielder that gets defeated, not the sword, means Odin is never banished from the realm.

The sword was sealed within Urths Gift. Calamity freed it to be found and thus Odin rides again.

I meant specifically that Odin has no worshippers. Alisaie says in CoB that Primals require a ready supply of Aether and worshippers to remain manifested. Cutting off either will greatly weaken or dissipate the Primal. Odin may draw Aether from his surroundings but he appears to have no worshipers apart from his host. In this I think he is unique. Even Shiva had devotees.

I don't think Midgarsormr is a primal. I've never heard him refered to as one in game and he hasn't displayed any particular traits you associate with primals. More over he left a body while primals for the most part dissipate upon death. I think he is just a really ancient dragon, perhaps from the very dawn of the world as the myth says.

Should I be avoiding spoilers in this thread? I've been trying to step around them.

[treuhavik]

I agree that chaos is the key to the door for not only primals but voidsent as well, anything "unnatural" to our plane for that matter. However, this chaos is not in the events that take place here, but the mayhem on the aetherial sea due to the warring between light and darkness. Their struggle against one another causes fluctuations in the amount of aether present; this is the "imbalance". For the time being, we're experiencing an over-abundance of aether present. There is simply too much life-juice floating around, loosening the once firm barriers that keep separate our realms. Of course, the scale could tip someday and deplete our realm of aether, which would likely drain the life from everything and everyone on the planet, but we'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it.

Where did it all begin? From what we can see at the moment, it would appear as though Hydaelyn is to blame. Soon after she came into being, so too did Zodiark. However, Hydaelyn spawned more than just a contrast to her light, Althyk (earth) and Nymeia (water) were born as well.

And then there was water, and through it the Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr.

All of these creations, be it solely of Hydaelyn or a product of her and the shadow her light casts, served her regardless. These beings of the light displaced the darkness - the planet floating within like a boat in water - causing the initial imbalance between the two and allowing aether (magic) to come upon the earth (Althyk).

Zodiark needed a method to combat the thieving light, and so the original Ascians were born.


These "Paragons" were to visit the world of light in Zodiark's stead and begin scheming to restore their creator's territory in the aetherial sea (space).
______________________________________________________________________________________

So, where did primals come from? They are the result of a mass amount of gathered aether given purpose by an individual(s) who, essentially, know in which direction to send their will. With the balance currently on the aether-heavy side, this becomes rather easy and, as it furthers their goal of depleting light from Hydaelyn, the Ascians are more than happy to share with those that are unaware.

As far as we know, that's all they are.

[Mishini_Dracoto]

I meant specifically that Odin has no worshippers.

Odin is not a Primal.

Zantesuken - the Sword - is the Primal.
have you fought Odin? yes? So you've seen him, wielding Zantetsuken? Certainly, you felt it CUT you. I'm sure you believe it exists.

but I Digress. What we don't know, is when Zantetsuken was originally summoned. You see, because, like Midgardsormr if MY Theories are correct, who just took a nap, Zantetsuken takes control over whoever picks up Zantetsuken, and turns them into Odin. All the while, sucking Aether out of the Black Shroud itself to sustain its presence in our realm.

EDIT INCOMING

but I wantz haz nowz!