Low probabilities of Triple Triad drops, big fish, etc. Grinds becoming unreal.

[Purrfectstorm]

This thread is full of people complaining about MMO's being MMO's since as long as it came into being.

RNG is luck and yes that's what it is. Don't like RNG? Go the grind route.

Dont want RNG or Grind? Get into a new category of gaming then. MMO's are not for you.

People need to stop havig such weak stomachs for every single grind in the game. I can fully understand the impatience from grinding and the RNG sometimes slapping you in the face but to expect otherwise from the MMO genre is equally silly. Pace yourselves or bulldoze through it, your only two options. Pick one and take a seat.

This thread is also full of people choosing a hostile, judgmental route instead of a compassionate one. Is this how you treat people who have bad luck in the real world? "You were in a car accident and are now paralyzed for life, your family is dead. That's just extreme RNG, buddy. That's just life being life."

Please try to see through another's eyes. You don't have to always agree with the other person.

I'm not trying to stop MMOs from being MMOs but there are good and bad game designs. Having too many 1% chances of X happening in a game when you have over 4 million subscribers means that a large number of those subscribers will at some point have a day (or a week or a month) like mine where they log on, can't accomplish anything, feel extremely disappointed, and start questioning the value they're getting for their time. However you could change the formula to preserve that 1% up to a certain number of tries and then start increasing it. So you might have someone who's unlucky (it takes 200 tries instead of 100) but is never so unlucky they just give up (it takes 500 or 1000 tries).

[Havenchild]

snip

RNG and Grind are always intertwined though. Grind essentially can serve as a method to counter balance RNG through repetition or provide an alternate path to a determined goal.

The problem is with MMOs you have to be extremely careful with time requirement when developing content. If content can be grinded through quickly it will be finished equally so , hence first day zetas. But imagine all of the content was like that? The game loses value extremely quickly because there are those who can bullduze through the content.

So the developers turn to RNG as the equalizer to level the playing field for everyone, and leave it to determine how much grind is necessary thus extending the life of the game.

[Purrfectstorm]

RNG and Grind are always intertwined though. Grind essentially can serve as a method to counter balance RNG through repetition or provide an alternate path to a determined goal.

The problem is with MMOs you have to be extremely careful with time requirement when developing content. If content can be grinded through quickly it will be finished equally so , hence first day zetas. But imagine all of the content was like that? The game loses value extremely quickly because there are those who can bullduze through the content.

So the developers turn to RNG as the equalizer to level the playing field for everyone, and leave it to determine how much grind is necessary thus extending the life of the game.

If you go too heavy-handed on the grind to extend the life of the game strategy, you end up with a very long, very boring game.

[Almalexia]

This thread is also full of people choosing a hostile, judgmental route instead of a compassionate one. Is this how you treat people who have bad luck in the real world? "You were in a car accident and are now paralyzed for life, your family is dead. That's just extreme RNG, buddy. That's just life being life."

Slow down, there, victimhood. You are voluntarily playing an MMO, a genre of video game that typically distributes rewards without regard for anybody in particular in order to lengthen the life of content.

Don't confuse sitting in a chair due to RNG with sitting in a wheelchair due to an unfortunate accident.

[Miste]

Also, the comment about fishing being optional, Coil and Extremes are optional, it's ALL optional. Playing this game is optional!

Also, just because someone likes fishing doesn't mean they like fishing for the SAME fish for 13 hours. Let me achieve my goal, move on to tracking down other big fish, etc.

Your implication is that there are fishing players and Coil players and whatever players but some of us dabble in all the content. I expect it to take longer to achieve specific goals this way but c'mon. You're aware that there are 106 big fish right? 106 x 13 hours = I'm going to find a new game. 80 Triple Triad cards x 7 hours = I'm going to find a new game. At some point you have to say enough is enough

I am aware that everything in the game is optional.

I never implicated that there are fishing players and coil players. I actually am someone who dabbles in all content...so I am sorry but I do not know where this implication came from. I was just stating that fishing is pure RNG that can really screw you over for an entire day sometimes, so if it bothers you or you dislike it maybe it isn't the type of content you should do.

Yes I am aware there is 106 big fish, as I am at 84/106 for the achievement. I started awhile after they added this achievement so I do not have that many compared to fishers who got ontop of it right away. I spent a lot of hours to get certain fish, while others I may have caught easier. So you are not going to spend 13 hours on every big fish, you cannot have fished much if you think that. Some people have a hard time with a certain fish, while you'll catch it easily, but then you'll have a hard time with some other fish, while others may have caught it easily. RNG almost always evens out.

If you find that you are spending too much time and not achieving anything then I guess maybe you should try to find a new game though, I dont know.

Also the slightly condescending tone you used on me was uncalled for, as I did not say anything rude to you in my post, so you can save it for the people being outwardly rude in their responses, which I was not.

This thread is also full of people choosing a hostile, judgmental route instead of a compassionate one. Is this how you treat people who have bad luck in the real world? "You were in a car accident and are now paralyzed for life, your family is dead. That's just extreme RNG, buddy. That's just life being life."

....Did you really just compare being paralyzed for life and family being dead to extreme RNG in a video game? :/

I think I am done in this thread....you have proved yourself....ineffective with this statement.

[Havenchild]

snip

Incidentally the events of life are depending on if you believe in religion or not, Predertermined or aren't and are just random. No difference is it like winning the lotto. Millions play it daily but only a handful of people win and at random. Some people play their entire lives and never win big, some play once and win big. But almost one thing is certain to an extent, those who play do eventually win something. Have you ever known someone who has played Lotto or scratch offs there entire life and NEVER have won anything? I sure haven't.


Moving onto your next example, Fail-safes are good but you have to carefully control what it can accomplish and how soon it can. For the same reason you feel 200 tries is more fair then 500 or 1000 tries, there are those who feel 200 is too much and it should lower then that or too low and should be harder to get. As a developer you have to figure out the balance of what's too much or too little. At the end of the day you settle on something and that seems reasonable and walk away from it.

Most people who are against MMO Grinds and RNG, I feel haven't been playing MMOs very long at all. This is the nature of the genre, and veterans to it understand very well why it is the way it is.

I'll give you a more literal example.

There was ( and will be returning) MMO called Dungeon Fighter Online. Originally from Korea, it sports an Fatigue Point system which basically deducted one point from the 156 daily total a player is given each time you complete a room. Once your points are depleted you are not allowed to run dungeons for the rest of the day. This created an artificial grind to extend the life of the game by "requiring" players to play consecutive days to maximize there leveling.

When the US version came out however, many players on this side of the world, requested the FP system be removed and devs obliged. The artifical grind was now removed, and the players could level up to cap in a span of a few days. This eventually lead to people making alts to extend the life of the game for themselves because only one activity existed at the end of the game. What happened? The game flopped in the US because eventually players stopped playing / paying the bills and supporting the game since there was just nothing left to do.

And the version overseas, that still sports the FP system and artificial grind? Still flourishing with millions of players many even former US players.

RNG / Grind add value to your characters. Imagine if anyone could make an account power through levels and get the best equips quickly. People either quit the game, people sell their accounts for profit they made the same day and things spiral out of control very quickly.

If you go too heavy-handed on the grind to extend the life of the game strategy, you end up with a very long, very boring game.

This is more a reflection of the users impatience rather then bad game design.

Whether you bulldozed through it or took your time with it, Nexus lights were the same time consuming process for everyone the exact same way.

One contrast you will always see is those who feel it was the worse thing in existence and others who thought it was definitely the worst part of the relic weapons, is that one of those sets of people will claim bad game design due to impatience, while the other will complete it for what it is , a grind, but not call it bad game design.

[AsahinaMyLove]

I swear, you people think this games grind is hard? Try PSO2 farming for 11/12* weapons and units, RO's atrocious drop rates... even the relic quest now isnt as bad as XI's.

"- Unable to catch Shonisaurus or Kuno the Killer (out of 4-5 30-45 min windows)."

I fkin lol'd.

PSO2 is a friggin Free-to-play game (sadly) <-<
those game are mostly designed to suck out our money. So the droprates on items is incredible low - near nonexistent - to kinda "force" players to buy stuff on the cashshop.

I played once a MMO Free-To-Play(it shutted down due low content updates) and I can tell everyone,
I will never make this misstake again!

[Havenchild]

PSO2 is a friggin Free-to-play game (sadly) <-<
those game are mostly designed to suck out our money. So the droprates on items is incredible low - near nonexistent - to kinda "force" players to buy stuff on the cashshop.

The rarity on items is not determined based off Free to Play or Pay to Play though. Refer to FFXIV Atmas, Ragnarok Online Card System, WOW Hero Items.

[Hiruke]

"That's MMOs for ya, bro!" is a weak defense. Also, why do people always say "you just want everything handed to you?" when someone complains about something being too grindy. Apparently people think repeating simple tasks for long periods of time in the hopes of getting lucky equals "hard work". It's a fallacy. Downing difficult content might be considered "hard work", but to hear many people in this thread tell it, winning the Jumbo Cactpot is the epitome of skillful play. "I sure did a good job getting lucky on this lottery/drop/other thing!" Yeah, ok.

People accept that drop rates will never be 100%, because you can't get too crazy will the loot pinata, but saying 1% drop rates (for example) is ok says more about you than it does about them. I play the game because it's fun. I'll keep hopping into content once I have everything if I find the fight enjoyable (like most primal fights), whereas I suspect most of you who think 1% drop rates and grinds are cool will never touch a content ever again once you get the thing you wanted from it. The key to any game, of any genre, is fun. If you're not having fun, it may be you who is in the wrong genre of games, and I don't really see a point in telling people that they should just accept 1% drop rates because hey, getting really lucky is the most important thing and is far more richly rewarding than doing anything that involves any actual skill or thought.

So what if other games are more grindy? Saying this or that game is like this or that has absolutely no bearing on this game, how people feel about it, or how "right" or "wrong" those feelings are.

[Aeyis]

This thread is full of people complaining about MMO's being MMO's since as long as it came into being.

RNG is luck and yes that's what it is. Don't like RNG? Go the grind route.

Dont want RNG or Grind? Get into a new category of gaming then. MMO's are not for you.

People need to stop havig such weak stomachs for every single grind in the game. I can fully understand the impatience from grinding and the RNG sometimes slapping you in the face but to expect otherwise from the MMO genre is equally silly. Pace yourselves or bulldoze through it, your only two options. Pick one and take a seat.

I spend 3 hours dueling a NPC just because I believed he might drop the Nanamo card. Please dont generalize. I dont mind grinding, but that doesnt mean I have to claim the incredible rng is fine, as you are doing.


Grinding would be a lot less of an issue if there wasnt the rare limitation in place, making it incredibly hard to beat certain NPCs once, let alone the hundreds of times you need for their cards.
On top of that, its both RNG and grind. And those 2 do not work well together.

Now I've done a combined total of 40 Duties that can drop cards without obtaining a single one. Thats not a grind, thats just pure rng.


Dont confuse this ''but its a mmo'' this is only a minigame in the actual game. Not everyone is done/bored with the rest of the game and can spend time running duties over and over for only a ''small chance'' at obtaining a single card.