Let's have a round of applause for bringing grind parties front and center in FFXIV

[RahJah]

Do you guys think it would be cool if really tough NM's gave lots of SP as a reward?

I like to hunt for NM's. It is more fun to fight a unique battle instead of fighting the same battle over and over again. It would be a nice alternative for gaining SP and cool items. This way even if the item that I am after does not drop I would still get a substantial amount of SP.

[Xianghua]

Do you guys think it would be cool if really tough NM's gave lots of SP as a reward?

I like to hunt for NM's. It is more fun to fight a unique battle instead of fighting the same battle over and over again. It would be a nice alternative for gaining SP and cool items. This way even if the item that I am after does not drop I would still get a substantial amount of SP.

No. will cause more problems than Solutions

Such as:
1- Will be packed 24/7 and bring back the FFXI Kings camps which i'm fairly sure no one wants with less rewards.

2. will be a lot more complaints by the people who suck at claiming and will only benefit those who can.

3. the idea itself will introduce the claiming bots that everyone used in XI which will cause a whole new set of complaints and problems.

4. the same people will get claim usually by using reason 3.

5. The idea of really tough NMs with worthy rewards would mean you need to be rank 50 thus making SP pointless to get.


Edit: not to sound rude or anything. But the problem with most of the idea's people give, is they only look at the benefits of it and not the problems. or simple don't care if the problem doesn't effect them personally. when you think of an idea. you need to think about how it will effect the community as a whole and not just a select few.

[Neptune]

Some good posts piling up in here.

Unfortunately, as I think I pointed at a little, I think the ship for that has sailed. The original team had such a vision - replacing the generic MMO auction house with a newer personal system, having progression based neither on party grinding nor on repetitive quests but some new system, and throwing away the typical class systems of other games for something more freeform and unique to your character. Those were all bold ideas that did not see the light of day because the game was released too quickly and they were crap in the state people got them in. It's obvious the current team has no intention to try and fix those systems up now and are instead replacing them. And I agree with that decision because it's impossible to put in the work needed to do that while everyone has abandoned the game and those that remain want every feature copied from FFXI or WoW anyway.

I think this is the best summary of FFXIV I have read yet. Unfortunately for the future of the game, you're right.

If they could make it the best, most unique game around that would be by far the best solution, but if the choice is to make it FFXI-2 or a "WoW clone" I think they have a better chance going with the former. Basically, I agree with your sentiments, but I think you are being too idealistic at this stage of the game.

I definitely agree that story should be more involved in progression, and in a way that allows them to do more than just the SP rewards that main story quests give now. If I had to describe it using previous examples, I'd say the storyline and dungeons from FFXI's Chains of Promathia expansion with actual good SP rewards along the way (instead of avoiding mobs whenever possible) would be pretty ideal. You could also think of it as like the dungeons we have now, or that are in other MMOs, but with actual cutscenes to describe the story, and put them in the main story instead of just for loot. Say much later on we track down an ascian, and follow it into a dungeon where we see it run within, then we have to fight through the dungeon, maybe meet an NPC along the way where you can do a sidequest right there inside it, and at the end have to confront the ascian in another cutscene leading to a boss showdown, then get to witness another main story scene where you get information from it before it escapes again. That would be pretty damned great and I totally support it.

However, I do think that it's somewhat infeasible for any development team to make this the sole means of progression in an MMO. As awesome as that would be, you can't take the 40 hours of gameplay intertwined with story in a single-player FF game and apply it over the hundreds of days people log in an MMO. This is why EQ/FFXI has grind parties and WoW and later games have terribly uninspired grind quests, and also why FFXIV had levequests to start.

I'm glad we agree on what an awesome game would actually be. The same thoughts have crossed my mind as well about CoP. I believe the idea of the single player FF experience but with a party of other people was present in FFXI.. but Tanaka couldn't pull it together. For instance, the climb to defeat the Shadowlord, or the whole progression through CoP. How epic would it have been to gain your final 5 levels on the climb to Shadowlord? Or 25-75 just in the CoP expansion? Not sneak/invising past every enemy in the very unique areas, but fighting them to grow your character on your way to a boss and cutscene. They had the framework in place but they couldn't turn it on. I totally agree with your thoughts, but I think it's feasible for it to be the main way of progression. Grind parties would still be doable just like you can grind in any RPG. Where there's a will, there's a way.

It absolutely cannot be equal for party grinding (or progression in any way) to be viable. If they are equal in terms of time investment to progress ratio no one will make parties because they are too much work - even the people who enjoy them more. There is a lot of time and effort that goes into building a party, picking an empty camp, and getting there, and that has to be accounted for. Beyond just the extra work that takes, you have to account for the fact that multiple people are committing to giving up multiple hours of their day in succession and that too must be compensated.

You know part of the compensation for setting it up is the fun of grind parties. You have to factor that in. I think you're thinking of back when no one would party in FFXIV, around initial release. Because there was a penalty for partying. It's never truly been in balance. I think it would work fine if it was balanced out. Besides, you could only do the quests once so if you wanted to level another job you'd be back at square 1 with guildleves and grind parties, so it would be fine.

While I'd rather not join the debate on "learning" for either side, I will say that one of the biggest draws of RPGs for me and many players is visible progression. I don't like games like Guild Wars where they try to remove character progression from the game entirely; if someone wants that they can go play some other genre.

"uss butthurt"

lol, yeah i saw that. The thing is it really doesn't affect me since I will rarely join a grind party. It's funny, but people could only be posting that if they aren't paying close enough attention.

So the gist of the OP is:

"Make the game yet another boring, monotonous quest grind for progression."

Am I getting warm? You can make quests "fun" but they're just as monotonous since you do them over and over and over again to cap your level, kind of like what you do with party grinding.

Jennestia.. I feel like you don't even read. Or maybe you read but then your imagination takes you to a dead end. Maybe you quickly associated quests with WoW quests. No need to jump to conclusions like that!

Meh... It's Neptune being Neptune... again.

His entire logic is "I have ideas that I know for a fact would be the best for the game. And I know they'd be best for the game, because they're my ideas." That's every one of his OPs in a nutshell.

Two of his favorite retorts to dissenting opinion are:

1. "You obviously are happy with the game the way it is and don't feel it needs to improve". This is a classic false dichotomy, a logical fallacy Neptune resorts to in practically every single post he makes.
2. "You just don't understand how much better his idea would be for the game". In other words, you can't possibly understand his point and simply *disagree* with it.. no no.. Surely its brilliance is simply beyond your understanding, because if you did understand" it, you would certainly agree with it.

The problem with Nep is he's completely in love with his own ideas and assumes that whatever he suggests is "right". And so, when you respond to him, you can only fall into two categories: 1) You agree with him, or 2) You're wrong.

This is why none of his threads can ever develop into a normal conversation and typically result in people basically ripping his posts apart, pointing out the flaws in his logic, calling him out on how he twists or distorts the facts and generally making him look like a complete fool. Eventually, he gives up on that thread and wanders off to start a new one to complain about something else and start the process all over again.

Perhaps if people just all ignored him and stop giving him the attention he obviously craves constantly... he'd get the picture and give it up.

I'm flattered that you have gotten to know me so well. You're onto something. A thread like this wasn't necessarily posted for discussion, as are some of my threads. This one was more like a statement. In fact, before these boards opened I would probably have submitted it as an email under suggestions and feedback, as I did many times under Tanaka in FFXI. I don't want you to feel like you don't matter to me if you disagree with me, and sometimes I get a little pointed if people defend points of view that are harmful to other players. Anyway, I don't give up on threads because there's no need to perpetuate a thread in the first place. It gets its fair share of attention and either the dev team reads it or they don't, same as with an email to suggestions and feedback. In fact, 90% of the replies in one of my threads have nothing to do with the OP and are just filled with people's superficial reactions to the topic instead of an actual discussion about the pros and cons - something I would be happy to engage in.

[Neptune]

I didn't grind in 1, 8 or 10. And actually, FF13 made some pretty good money and got good reviews, despite being the most realistic hallway simulator on PS3. But that doesn't make your point a good one; the reason people dislike this game is because of the grind. The vast majority of customers do not like grinding anymore, they want to progress through the story without having to stop to catch up in levels. Grinding is something devs put in games in the 90's to artificially inflate game time, because you couldn't give games content updates at all.



You don't need to group grind your whole way to the level cap to learn how to be a team player or how to communicate. Making grouping optional, yet accessible is the only thing that people need to learn how to play together. Forcing people to group achieves nothing besides pissing them off.

Totally agree.

I solo'd BLM on Qiqirns, Wamoura and Puddings. Think about all the Beastmasters, PUPs, Dragoons who had to solo because of people thinking they weren't worth a damn. Impossible to solo, shows YOU don't know what you're talking about.

"You only learn to tank and heal by educating yourself"

And getting 30k sp for killing two mobs really does that for you. Think before you post.

There's no way you played FFXI without partying for many hours. It is possible to solo to cap but it's about as possible as walking from New York to California. So you solo'd one job to cap - are you supporting my point or your point? It sounds like you're undermining your point unless you're claiming to be an unskilled player. About your second point, no getting an arbitrary amount of sp does not educate you. Research and learning educate you!

Pretty much! What do you expect when people have lived under the same fecal covered rock since 2003 though?

lol

/sigh

a lot of you have the wrong idea of what quest are suppose to be about. Its not suppose to be about SP or Rewards.
Quest are put into games to give you a better understanding to the people and background of the world. they need Depth and meaning into doing them. Not run here and back for 30k sp. these are the type of quest the game needs, it brings much needed lore and depth into the world we lack so much of.

Something must be wrong with me and my idea's of what games should be like. I've always played games to enjoy the lore and story of the worlds. Not just to beat it as fast as i could. No game should be about getting max level and beating it as fast as you can.

I agree! Which is pretty much what these quests are in FFXIV. The reason I think they should award character growth is that the grind seems so unnecessary. Anything you do with your character should award growth.. in my book, especially story progression.

I agree! and for people who just mad rush to cap level THEN want content...im confused..... imagine buying any rpg console game, going home, "kill boars" in the forest till you hit cap.....THEN actually play the game....where's the fun in that?

Exactly man. Doesn't make any sense.

Do you guys think it would be cool if really tough NM's gave lots of SP as a reward?

I like to hunt for NM's. It is more fun to fight a unique battle instead of fighting the same battle over and over again. It would be a nice alternative for gaining SP and cool items. This way even if the item that I am after does not drop I would still get a substantial amount of SP.

Yeah I think that would be awesome. I enjoyed the hunts in FF12. Something like that would be great. It should award an amount of character growth in proportion to the challenge.

No. will cause more problems than Solutions

Edit: not to sound rude or anything. But the problem with most of the idea's people give, is they only look at the benefits of it and not the problems. or simple don't care if the problem doesn't effect them personally. when you think of an idea. you need to think about how it will effect the community as a whole and not just a select few.

This is a great point. It's good to think through things both for and against your idea. But no one's perfect, so it's wise to be open to further points for and against once the community gets involved. If any of you think I deviate from this call me out on it!

[Tombah]

In a nutshell...

• Story (single-player) → Grindfest → Story (single-player) → Grindfest → ... → end-game content

This is what we have now.

• Story (single or multi-player) → Story (single or multi-player) → ... → end-game content
  alongside
  Grindfest → end-game content

A game that gives its players the freedom to do whatever they want at any time.


amirite? I think I agree with you. Say no to the grind!

[Xenor]

Let's not. Grnding the same mob over and over is worse than leves. I'm ignoring battle classes until they implements the levelling ideas Yoshi posted about not too long ago.

[RahJah]

No. will cause more problems than Solutions

Such as:
1- Will be packed 24/7 and bring back the FFXI Kings camps which i'm fairly sure no one wants with less rewards.

2. will be a lot more complaints by the people who suck at claiming and will only benefit those who can.

3. the idea itself will introduce the claiming bots that everyone used in XI which will cause a whole new set of complaints and problems.

4. the same people will get claim usually by using reason 3.

5. The idea of really tough NMs with worthy rewards would mean you need to be rank 50 thus making SP pointless to get.


Edit: not to sound rude or anything. But the problem with most of the idea's people give, is they only look at the benefits of it and not the problems. or simple don't care if the problem doesn't effect them personally. when you think of an idea. you need to think about how it will effect the community as a whole and not just a select few.

In response to your post Xianghua Shizuka. I think that competition is healthy and promotes a stronger community. The good NM's that offer high reward will always be camped at least moderatly, and should be. There would still be alternatives to acheive SP as there are now. Also, a battle does not have to be rnk 50 to be tough/challenging/fun.

As, for the bots .... I guess if there is an award waiting to be claimed somewhere in the game ppl are gonna create bots to attain it. Does that mean that there should not be awards worthy of persuing?

[Raze]

The tags on this thread almost make it worth existing.

[Xianghua]

I'm sorry There is Simply no Possible way to make the SP off a claimed NM better then the SP you can make grinding. without causing more problems then solutions. If the items and SP are truly worth it that's what everyone will do. every other way of leveling will not be used. Why grind or Run around doing quest for 2hrs to get 50k sp when you can kill a NM to get the same SP.
You would still be killing the same mob over and over if after SP. while you don't have to be level 50 for things to be tough. people will always do whats easiest. would you bring a group of 30s to a NM for drops or a group of 50s?
The only possible way to do this is make the drops worthless for high levels (which pretty much makes them useless to go after). or make the SP Lower then what you could get an hour grinding.

As for bots there are many other ways to put in challenging events that do not require attempting to claim NMs. I'm not sure if you played endgame in XI. But King camps were horrible setting there in one place for hours on end just for a little chance to claim a NM for a reward isn't worth the trouble.

I'm sorry but the best way to get EXP/SP or anything SHOULD be the hardest way to get it. and that is by grinding. does it suck? yes. but there simply is no other way that will not hurt the game more then it helps.

[Preypacer]

In response to your post Xianghua Shizuka. I think that competition is healthy and promotes a stronger community. The good NM's that offer high reward will always be camped at least moderatly, and should be. There would still be alternatives to acheive SP as there are now. Also, a battle does not have to be rnk 50 to be tough/challenging/fun.

As, for the bots .... I guess if there is an award waiting to be claimed somewhere in the game ppl are gonna create bots to attain it. Does that mean that there should not be awards worthy of persuing?

What you're suggesting is to basically make certain rare NMs "big buckets-o-SP".

Given that people these days seem single-mindedly obsessed with "getting as much sp as possible" - even if it's at the expense of other aspects of character progression (such as how they'd willingly neglect leveling their weapon skills in XI if it meant getting faster xp on their jobs) - I have a feeling it would *not* turn out well. It seems like no matter what kind of rewards a developer puts in their game to reward a player for their time and effort, people absolutely lose their minds when it comes to sp/xp gain.

I don't know if you played XI or not, but the competition over rare NMs led to a lot of serious imbalance between players who used bots to get claim every time, versus those who tried to claim them legitimately. For a time (prior to SE patching it out) if someone claimed the mob legitimately, their competition (being sore losers at having lost the claim) would try to MPK the player so they'd lose the claim, or try to steal it away from them somehow.

It didn't lead to 'friendly competition'. It led to a lot of cheating, hacking, harassment and hard feelings.

Eventually, SE had to change the nature of the world drops to no-sell/no-trade just to alleviate all the issues.

I think NMs should give an amount of sp proportionate to their level and, with perhaps a *small* boost for the fact that they're a rare creature and tougher than others of their type. There's also the chance for nice drops. That's enough reward. I don't think it would be wise turning them into buckets-o-sp for people to try "farming".