Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Lavieh]

I feel like I've been a pretty prominent poster when it comes to SMN and their DPS problems and one of the things I have noticed is that ALOT of SMN's refused to accept anything I have to say just because they are a SMN.

I love SMN, I still play it from time to time and it still has my heart as my "most" favorite class but I can easily accept that they are weak. Everyone wanted to elude to the mana problem as the main problem but I knew for a fact that wasn't the only issue and that their DPS is a lot lower than what others are able to do. I mean there are several SMN's out their doing their best and they still don't even hold a candle to the potential that BLM has. Stop taking personal offence to SMN's lack of DPS. Accept it and collaborate with the rest of the community and then maybe something will be change.

[Romsca]

I gain Piety when I use my BLM soul Crystal, Summoner Don't. BLM don't have a flaw design. They don't need to be changed so they are equal to SMNs. It's the SMN that needs to be changed meaning you are saying they need a buff.

All classes gain mana for each point of piety. Each class and job gain it at different rates. Blm and smn have zero piety on gear outside of crafted gear and food. What I am saying is that for smn, with a base amount of 214 piety, our conversion rate should be way higher than blm to the point that without crafted gear or food smn should be sitting around 4k mana pool.
Blm does not have need for a large mana pool, having one is a perk. Your class mechanic is to swap though fire for damage and ice for regen, rinse repeat. Summoner doesn't play that way. Every class has a form of resource replenishment. However, not counting bards songs, no class can sustain infinite resource like black mage. Even melee run out over time. So smn should receive a higher mana pool so aetherflow returns more back thus extending our staying power, increasing dps with more festers, and strengthens our class playstyle of being a multi target dotter. This small mana fix also changes spell speed to be favorable for smn.

[Romsca]

I find it interesting that instead of addressing the blatant flaws that summoners have, you're instead pointing fingers at the content and saying that all the content is flawed. Almost as if you think the entire game should be centered around summoners when every other job currently has no issues at all with the current content. Interesting indeed.

At the end of the day, numbers are numbers, and Summoners simply cannot keep up with Black Mages in the current content, and their "utility" is next to irrelevant.

But then again, according to you, Square Enix should change all content in the game so that Summoner is more useful, rather than simply, I don't know, changing the class itself.

Interesting argument indeed.

You really need to go back though all my posts in this thread. I have only used the content design in the last 2 pages in regards to the usefulness of summoner utility spells e4e, supervirus and resurrection. Never have I said the content should favor summoner over any class.

I have and still hold that the biggest fix summoner, in its current iteration, is increasing its mana pool size and tweaking their weapon damage.

[Aikaal]

I love SMN, I still play it from time to time and it still has my heart as my "most" favorite class but I can easily accept that they are weak.

That,s exactly what I want to mention. SMN is flawed right now, you're not forced to stop playing it.

with a base amount of 214 piety, our conversion rate should be way higher than blm to the point that without crafted gear or food smn should be sitting around 4k mana pool.

I have infinite mana but you have no idea how the BLM rotation works. This is a territory you shouldn't enter I have a base of 245 Piety because of my BLM Soul. A lot of people give few Piety points as a BLM for their rotation. Some of them go crazy and meld to have 316 Piety to get an extra Fire 1 in their rotation. I want to keep my large mana pool.

The mana pool of BLM has nothing to do with Summoners.

[Odowla]

I have and still hold that the biggest fix summoner, in its current iteration, is increasing its mana pool size and tweaking their weapon damage.

I have Dreadwyrm Grimoire on my SMN.

My ilevel is 115. And I gained 20 DPS from all that weapon damage. It's a scaling problem as a whole, not just weapon damage. Every other class gets 50+, and Monks gained around 100 DPS from the HA > Dread upgrade alone.

And here's the Math post of SMN issues, adding 1k mp would only delay it a little bit.

Base DoT Rotation + Durations: 159/30s + 133/24s + 106/18s + 212/30s + 186/60s (miasma 2 + contagion)
So the BASE rotation, without counting Miasma 2, is 610 MP - which is, on my character without SCH piety bonus, 20.3% of my total mp. FOR ONE ROTATION OF DOTS.
Now since Aetherflow exists, lets put this into a rotation fitting in with the CD of Aetherflow, and counting Contagion.
(159 x 2) + (133 x 2) + (106 x 3) + (212 x 2) + 186. Bio 2 Twice per minute, 40 second duration with Contagion (or so). Miasma 2 Twice per minute with contagion, 39 second max duration with contagion. Bio I 3 times per minute, 33 seconds max + 2 more casts per minute. Shadow Flare Twice per minute, 30 second duration.
Total MP Per minute = 1512 MP. or, 50.4% of Max MP per minute, when Contagion is used.
When Contagion ISNT used, the rotation looks like this.
159 x 2 + 133 x 3 + 106 x 3 + 212 x 2 for 1459 MP, or 48.6% of total MP per minute without Contagion.
Technically, the DPS increase from Contagion that you see is you spend 7.5 second less per minute casting dots, and you get increased Raging Strikes dots. You also gain 3 ruins due to that 7.5 seconds less of dot casting, so lets factor THAT in now, onto the Contagion rotation.
1512 MP + (79x3) = 1749 MP. So you spend 237 more MP per rotation when Contagion is used, every time it is used. (since 3 less dots recast = 3 more ruins) 1749 = 58.3% of max MP per rotation.
I havent factored in Aetherflow MP generation yet, so I'll do that now. Aetherflow = 20% Max MP per minute
Making Contagion Rotations have 38.3% of max MP per minute, non-contagion rotations having 28.6% max MP per rotation.
Again, remember that this isnt including total ruin casts per minute.
In the Contagion rotation, you spend 3 more GCD's casting Ruins over casting dots, that's already been factored in. On the normal rotation, you spend 14 GCD's casting Ruins(Math Below), so on a Contagion rotation that's 17.
Ruin casts = (60s - time spent casting dots /2.5)
60s / 2.5 s = 24 gcds/minute
10 gcds on DoTs without contagion - 24 gcd's/minute = 14 gcd's casting ruin MP cost of 14 ruins = 79 x 14 = 1106 MP/Minute or 1343 with contagion 1106 MP per minute is 36.8% of max MP / minute without contagion, on a non-contagion rotation you get 84.4% of max MP per minute, or 64.4% with Aetherflow.
Now to count 2% MP regen/3 seconds in combat + aetherflow for total MP drain per minute without contagion
1459 + 1106 = 2565 MP/Minute
Aetherflow on Miqote Sunseeker = 20% of 2998 = 599MP restored + 2% of 2998 = 59 mp / 3 seconds = 1199 MP from Natural Regen
= 599 + 1199 = 1798 MP / minute
2565 - 1798 = 867 MP per Minute or 28% of total MP per minute spent.

[Romsca]

I love SMN, I still play it from time to time and it still has my heart as my "most" favorite class but I can easily accept that they are weak. Everyone wanted to elude to the mana problem as the main problem but I knew for a fact that wasn't the only issue and that their DPS is a lot lower than what others are able to do. I mean there are several SMN's out their doing their best and they still don't even hold a candle to the potential that BLM has. Stop taking personal offence to SMN's lack of DPS. Accept it and collaborate with the rest of the community and then maybe something will be change.

Whole heartedly agree with you. And if by chance I was one those taking offense to the lack of dps, I wasn't and have been suggesting that weapon damage be tweaked to increase our dps without altering the class playstyle.

[Romsca]

SMN is flawed right now, you're not forced to stop playing it.


I have infinite mana but you have no idea how the BLM rotation works. This is a territory you shouldn't enter I have a base of 245 Piety because of my BLM Soul. A lot of people give few Piety points as a BLM for their rotation. Some of them go crazy and meld to have 316 Piety to get an extra Fire 1 in their rotation. I want to keep my large mana pool.

The mana pool of BLM has nothing to do with Summoners.

Then explain it to me. Blm goes though fire phase to dish damage, then ice phase to replenish mana to repeat the process. Having a larger mana pool on blm Mage means squeezing out an extra fire spell during astral fire phase. And while it affects your incombat mana regen (pre umbral ice stacks) the amount you regen with umbral ice stacks makes that amount negilable.
I played WoW balance druid before, have a fair understanding of blm base mechanic.

[Aikaal]

Whole heartedly agree with you. And if by chance I was one those taking offense to the lack of dps, I wasn't and have been suggesting that weapon damage be tweaked to increase our dps without altering the class playstyle.

More mana won't change a thing. There's few way to fix Summoners. They can't buff Scholars because they don't need it so they can't really touch Arcanists. I could easily see a change in Fester to be the key to fix their mana issue. They need to revamp Tri-disaster to give utility. It's useless like Apocastasis used to be trash and it's so good now.

[Romsca]

Odowla, with 4k mana, aetherflow flow would return 800 per minute and have an in combat regeneration tick of 79 per 3 second. I only use 4k as an example of the size increase we need. I currently sank my 30 att points into piety and have 244, With a pool of 3280 in party with scholar. As much as I would love to sustain dot durations and ruin infinitely, even I think there has to be a threshold when we should run out of resources and need the bard to sing.

[Aikaal]

Then explain it to me. Blm goes though fire phase to dish damage, then ice phase to replenish mana to repeat the process. Having a larger mana pool on blm Mage means squeezing out an extra fire spell during astral fire phase. And while it affects your incombat mana regen (pre umbral ice stacks) the amount you regen with umbral ice stacks makes that amount negilable.

Fire I is 306 Potency. It also has 40% chance to give you an instant cast free Fire III that is 468 potency. So if you had more Fire I in your rotation, you do a lot more damage. In your ice stance, Blizzard I is 170 Potency and Thunder I is 240 Potency. If BLMs were to have the same mana pool than SMN which is 3k, I'd barely have mana for cast 4 Fire I in my rotation. I'd be useless.

You could say I prefer to spend as much time in my Astral Fire stance and the least time in my Umbral Ice stance but I,d want to have full mana in my Astral Fire.