Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Minorinz]

-

Nicely put. In theory Summoner should be doing more but in reality it isn't. Those deductions are simply becoming facts.

[scarebearz]

Snip

Those numbers mean very little at the moment, the BLM chart has about double the entrys and a much wider mix of severs. (SMN one having mainly results from Gilgamesh, because the creator asked people he/she knew)

When the BLM one had less entrys the numbers were a lot lower too, comparing a small sample to a bigger one is always going to be biased.

Also note I have not said that SMN does not need some fixing, but Nerfing BLM to SMN's current level (likely below with a 5m CD Flare), is not going to help casters/SMN's one bit.

Even on those more AoE heavy fights melee have the potential to do more dps, going by the numbers I've seen atleast.

Imo BLM is exactly where it should and SMN needs some small changes to bring it up on par.

[Akiza]

The problem with the Summoner is its a DoT based DPS which is a mediocre DPS in today's MMORPGS and in this game. Back in the early days of MMORPGS when they required more strategy to play instead of just making DPS checks and dancing around mechanics DoT Damage Dealers were used as a debuffer/controller to debuff mobs and the boss. Since this game is designed around dancing around mechanic and making strict DPS checks the Summoner being DoT has no place in this game. The DoT job design is a relic of the past the Summoner is like an old antique car it looks good and has a lot of value in the show room but once on the road it loses all value because of how impractical it is.

[SomnusNemoris]

Double the entries does not mean anything. That and I think that it is a very fair interpretation considering I am both a SMN and BLM (have witnessed the difference first hand). Regarding the entries. People with ilvl 114 are doing more DPS than ilvl 130 Summoners, are you for real? I also used those numbers because Sen seemed to make the claim that people asking for a buff have no experience in end game and base themselves on dungeon, to which you said you agreed. "This sums it up very well" is what you said. I just found it funny that on the chart his DPS is from 60-90 DPS lower than what a BLM can do when at the same time putting his opinion out so arrogantly. Although it must be noted that low ilvl can also be pentamelded stuff. Still, it is a significant gap.
I have seen the BLM numbers from the start and it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with people gearing up over time and then getting big numbers. And I would say that people (BLM) with ilvl 114 doing more damage than the top DPS with ilvl 135 weapon and ilvl 130, says a great deal about the gap between DPS. Those who claim that there is no huge gap are biased and blind. It is so obvious.
SMN is indeed lacking around 40+ DPS less than BLM, which has been proven over and over again and from personal experience I can say the same. BLM is indeed where it should be, SMN far from it. The chart speaks for itself. Actually, it is YOU who outDPS most of the 130 ones.
Also, seeing that the top DPS is from Death and Taxes, I guess that should at least tell you something, right? If that guy is like 40-80 DPS behind top tier BLM with his SMN, I think that should also tell you something.

[scarebearz]

Those who claim that there is no huge gap are biased and blind. It is so obvious.
SMN is indeed lacking around 40+ DPS less than BLM

As I said, comparing the extremes of a small sample of data with a larger one, is biased.

Even if it is accurate, a 40 dps difference in the 500's is not what I consider a "huge gap", it is around 8% at most.

Some of that 8% can be may up with an MP fix as the fights in question are of long duration and the rest could be made up with a small potency/gear fix.

Though I think a 5-6% boost would probably be about right.

The thing I am against are all the calls for BLM Nerfs, rather than boosting SMN to be on par.

[SomnusNemoris]

It is not biased at all. The small data sample is no argument. 10-13 people is enough data to provide at least some sense. And as I have said before, Rational Gaze is a top tier hardcore raider who can be used as a legitimate way of comparing BLM DPS with SMN DPS. If this player has 30-80 DPS lower than top tier Black Mages (with 10 higher ilvl!), then if that does not tell you anything, then what does? The data samples are simply halved, which isn't that big of a deal. Do you honestly think there are Summoners out there who have yet to post their 580 T10 DPS parse? Do you honestly think that there are SMN out there who radically improve upon the already collected data? And if so, what argument do you bring against the fact that such a scenario can be equally true for BLM?
Also note that in comparison, to low end of the charts are lower on BLM than it is on SMN, perhaps that also says something about the data.
I have said 40+ DPS, which is a significant number, thank you. How many % extra do you think 8% is from a boss? 3-4! Not a big deal, right?
The SMN does not need a pure 40+ DPS boost by the way. It needs to outshine BLM in the ST departement while mainting the decent AoE and BLM needs to outshine SMN on the AoE deperatment while maintaining decent ST damage, which they already have.

[scarebearz]

Do you honestly think that there are SMN out there who radically improve upon the already collected data?

Yes I do and I'm sure we'll see higher BLM numbers too at some point.

You don't really seem to read or understand my posts, you just seem to want to rant at me xD

I argued BLM should remain the same and SMN should be brought on par overall, you posts appear to actually agree with this statement, in a somewhat angry manner xD

You have said your posting from an Alt character? So I assume I know you main? Does your mains name begin with a V?

[SomnusNemoris]

I understand your posts perfectly and if you think that BLM will come with higher numbers too, that negates your point, makes it useless and lets the gap remain between BLM and SMN. You basically refuted your own argument in a way. I agree with you alright, I just noted that 40+ DPS is a significant amount of damage. I'll tell you right away, there won't be radically changed parses over time for SMN, because I honestly believe that the result of Rational Gaze (with 135 weapon and ilvl 130) reflects the reality of SMN DPS as it is. Maybe a maximum of 10-15 DPS can be pushed out, which of course is still ludicrous in comparison.
The "rant" by the way comes mostly from you agreeing with Sen who had a completely the opinion that a small buff and an MP fix would do the trick. If you can close the current gap with just that, I think that is wishful thinking. But in the end, yes, SMN should be brought to the same heights as BLM by making it excel in a part of damage dealing. If it was up to me, I would bring casters closer to melee as well. The gap there is also a little bit too big, imo.

[scarebearz]

I understand your posts perfectly and if you think that BLM will come with higher numbers too, that negates your point

It does not negate my point at all, I believe we will see bigger increases in the SMN chart than we will for the BLM one that has been around longer and has much more data.

I agree the gap between casters and melee is a bit big, but it is not far off what it should be imo.

Back when most static slots for t9 were filled with SMN and people were making a big fuss about BLM being weak, BLM got around a 6-8% buff and I do consider that to be a small buff.

Decent players were still doing very well as BLM dps-wise and it was fine for meeting the T9 dps-checks back then.

On content were MP is not an issue (Ex's, BCoB, SCoB), some SMN still seem to do very nice damage and the gap appears to be much smaller, though that is from personal experiance only.

SE are pretty good with class balance and before long SMN will be adjusted, pretty sure they know the actual difference in numbers and will fix it (like they have done with other classes), but it won't happen over night.

[SomnusNemoris]

The fact that something is around longer does not mean that there will be data that radically improves on the other data, that is just a fallacy. Please refute my argument that the top tier raider Rational Gaze will most likely not see a huge increase piling upon his own input. It is not irrational to think that a top tier raider respesents the limit to which SMN can go, but as I have said, I do believe that there might be an extra 10-15 DPS to be gained there. Which still leaves a significant gap. There is absolutely no reason, rationally, to believe that the data SMN now have compiled is something to be radically improved upon. Actually, I have never seen a Summoner do more in coil, in videos, in parses and so on. I'll bet you right now that we will not see a radical improvent for Summoners and I think I have a strong case for thinking so.
You will most likely remember the likes of Lipton Icetea and the other BLM that was with him who claimed that a BLM buff was not needed by showing their immense DPS numbers. They could outDPS a SMN with little effort but for the expection of T7 and 9. But even then, it would still be close. Now that BLM had the buff, the best of BLM push out tremendous amounts of numbers, and a lot higher than the SMN potentional. In second coil, SMN was good, alright, but BLM and SMN were almost equal. After the buff, not so much. But that's the last thing I am going to say about it. We agree that SMN needs to be on the same foot, and that to me, is all that matters.