Level 50 Dungeon Level Syncs

[Raist]

Raist was arguing an opinion based on personal experience, I countered his argument with my own.

Not so much opinion as fact... or do you not understand what a precedent is?

prec·e·dent
noun
noun: precedent; plural noun: precedents
ˈpresəd(ə)nt/

1.
an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.
"there are substantial precedents for using interactive media in training"
synonyms: model, exemplar, example, pattern, previous case, prior instance/example

That is why I coined that phrase... because it is a recurring problem throughout of all history. If we are not mindful of the mistakes made in the past, we risk the danger of repeating them. The same applies to successes as well. SE let the harsh restrictions linger too long in XI, and the playerbase (and subscription retention) suffered greatly for it. But, when they provided us a means to manually synch our levels on demand and lifted the caps, they almost instantly revived the game.

So yes... forcing a level synch is restrictive (and not only as a side effect from our human nature, but it is so by it's most basic definition), and as an end result it can lead to more problems than it is meant to correct if not managed properly. Alternatives have been offered by several others that may sufficiently counter what you have lobbied for (approaches that have been shown in the past to be more detrimental then beneficial).

But... if you aren't a student of such history, I guess you may never come to understand the value of those lessons that many of us have already learned.

[Kosmos992k]

Not so much opinion as fact... or do you not understand what a precedent is?

I perfectly well understand what a precedent is. I should point out that just as you gave an example of personal experience as precedent, so did I. Are you contending that your personal experience is more factual than mine? Your experience in one game does not make your opinion supported by that experience a fact, and yet that is what you appear to be saying here.

That is why I coined that phrase... because it is a recurring problem throughout of all history. If we are not mindful of the mistakes made in the past, we risk the danger of repeating them. The same applies to successes as well. SE let the harsh restrictions linger too long in XI, and the playerbase (and subscription retention) suffered greatly for it. But, when they provided us a means to manually synch our levels on demand and lifted the caps, they almost instantly revived the game.

So yes... forcing a level synch is restrictive (and not only as a side effect from our human nature, but it is so by it's most basic definition), and as an end result it can lead to more problems than it is meant to correct if not managed properly. Alternatives have been ofered by several others that may sufficiently counter what you have lobbied for that has been shown in the past to be more detrimental then beneficial. But... if you aren't a student of such history, I guess you may never come to understand the value of those lessons that many of us have already learned.

All of this is opinion which you are dressing as fact. Your experience in FFXI is not the only experience with players being overpowered at end-game. I'm not going to reply further to you since a) people would rather attack the wording of my posts than address the merits, and b) you persist in explicitly stating your opinion as fact.

[Ophie-Mio]

It would make old content interesting again to newer players like me who never got to run dungeons like AK or WP when they were current content.

Except that in the case of AK (I can't remember WP atm), level syncing to a low level wasn't actually the hard part about that dungeon. If you talk to old school people about that dungeon, they won't say it's cause they were in garbage equipment compared to now. They'll say it was because the bees there just murdered them into oblivion WHILE trying to also dps in crap gear. Hell, the issue of that dungeon was so prevalent that the designers had to change it so that you could do it more easily for relic. Back when, you couldn't complete your grand company quests to get the nice weapons because of AK so they added AV to the GC quest and they got rid of the bees eventually for AK.

The point is, level syncing some of these dungeons won't restore their original challenge as their mechanics have been downgraded. Pharos Sirius for instance is a joke (tanks can pull entire floors) but while level sync may restore some of that balance, if people want some of these dungeons like when they were "current content" then that means restoring the bosses to the way they used to be. Bees intact, Siren needing to be silenced. Hell, half the time her tower was unclimbable.

[Alistaire]

To which I would hope someone would reply with something like "OMG, you have a problem doing that in ilvl 90 gear? Seriously?"

I don't have a problem doing it in ilvl 90 gear, or i110 gear. I just have more of a problem doing it in i110 sync when the other dps we get from df is wielding a lvl 40 weapon and full AF than when it was unsynched. We're not talking about absolutes here. The problem isn't what's needed to beat the dungeons, it's a matter of how easy it is to carry the derps you get from df.

[Nyalia]

Except that in the case of AK (I can't remember WP atm), ...

I think you totally misread my post... I was saying that adding in a synced option for those dungeons would provide newer players with a chance to go through those dungeons and have them be at least somewhat challenging when we never had a chance to do so before. I wasn't saying that it would be just like they were back when they were released, nor that I wanted it to be like they were when they were released. I know that dungeons were nerfed in ways that had nothing to do with ilvl. That's totally irrelevant to my point, which was that having a level sync option would make the dungeons interesting to go through for me, and that some of us aren't sick of the dungeons because we didn't run it a million times when it was current content because we didn't play when it was current content.

They don't need to unnerf the content or make any changes to the content itself for the content to be content again for newer players. They also don't have to make the dungeons hell for long-time players who just want to stomp them for their relics. They just have to allow a level sync option - best of both worlds.

[Ophie-Mio]

I think you totally misread my post...

Nah, I replied in regard to you asking for the dungeons like when they were current content. I think you worded your post in an unusual way if you meant level sync exclusively. Cause this:

It would make old content interesting again to newer players like me who never got to run dungeons like AK or WP when they were current content.

Has nothing to do with level sync. It may just be because you used AK in your example but even with level sync, some dungeons are never going to be played the way they were when they were "current content." In the case of AK, that dungeon is a memory.

However, I do agree with the sentiment of a level sync granting newer players the chance for some dungeons being content again and not passengers on a speedrun monkey. Though SE doesn't really give options in that regard. If they level sync, they will perform a hard one the way they did with the High level roulette or more extreme since we're using what this thread has suggested). That will undoubtedly keep a majority of the higher ilevel players out except for when they need to do their relic. By that nature, the majority of players through it won't even need the level sync.

[Kosmos992k]

I don't have a problem doing it in ilvl 90 gear, or i110 gear. I just have more of a problem doing it in i110 sync when the other dps we get from df is wielding a lvl 40 weapon and full AF than when it was unsynched. We're not talking about absolutes here. The problem isn't what's needed to beat the dungeons, it's a matter of how easy it is to carry the derps you get from df.

Well, some content has a minimum ilvl requirement on it already, the same could be done with these other dungeons to prevent that type of griefing tactic and/or accidents with gearing.

[Ashkendor]

Well, some content has a minimum ilvl requirement on it already, the same could be done with these other dungeons to prevent that type of griefing tactic and/or accidents with gearing.

Er. It's not a griefing tactic though. I've run into some players with extremely poor gear in AK in particular because it's the first real stepping stone to the relic quest. Level 40 weapon, AF gear, level 38 accessories. >.<

[Raist]

I perfectly well understand what a precedent is. I should point out that just as you gave an example of personal experience as precedent, so did I. Are you contending that your personal experience is more factual than mine? Your experience in one game does not make your opinion supported by that experience a fact, and yet that is what you appear to be saying here.



All of this is opinion which you are dressing as fact. Your experience in FFXI is not the only experience with players being overpowered at end-game. I'm not going to reply further to you since a) people would rather attack the wording of my posts than address the merits, and b) you persist in explicitly stating your opinion as fact.

Your example was a bit of a straw man...

Oh, and just so you know, there were some dungeons with two or even three levels of difficulty, the low level version might (for instance) be level 30, and the high level one might be level 50.

Three different versions of a dungeon is not what is at issue here. This is the same dungeon, the same mobs, the same difficulty. What is being discussed is the restrictions being placed directly on the players. That is in fact what the level synch is, which you have yet to acknowledge and in fact have challenged...which is in large part at the heart of why you have people that are reluctant to run them just for the sake of running them, but only do them because it is a means to a desired end---not some magnanimous gesture to help out new players. For such players, once they get what they want, they are more likely to abandon that content until they are either forced back into it, or they see a more direct need to assist a specific person (either a friend struggling with it, or someone asks them directly--but not so much queuing a dungeon just for the sake of doing so).

The example I gave is a near identical parallel to what has been requested--restricting players down towards the original level of the dungeon. The example I offered up is relative in that it would be roughly the same scenario (not to mention how much of this game feels like rehashed copy/pasta of that game--WP-HM is just a few elements short of being a revamped Nyzul Isle floor, complete with HD versions of monsters and even an enemy leader from TAU), and if history were to repeat itself it could have the same negative effect. It is not an opinion of mine as to what that impact was. It was known that many players gave up on the game because they could not progress past fairly early level-capped stages of the game because they could not get anyone to help them with the capped content. Discuss it with any really long-time players of that game and you will likely hear a similar tale. It was a real problem. Multiple server mergers are a bit of a testament to that effect.

Such problems did not plague just that one game either. It is a very common dilemma that can eventually face any game, and in fact has. You could even see it in much simpler games like the Diablo series or even older games like Freespace. Once players move on to a certain level, there is a large group that simply doesn't have the patience/will to do outdated content unless they are effectively forced to do it to achieve a certain goal. And in those scenarios, if they realize there are viable alternative options that are far less tedious to obtain (note Abyssea and later, SoA content in the scope of XI)... well it is often human nature to be drawn to the path of least resistance.

In the present state of the game, we are looking at that very scenario starting to play out. There appears to be a growing consensus of players that aren't doing these older runs for "altruistic" reasons---it is because they have to in order to achieve a certain goal that they still value. Once that goal is obtained, or no longer holds a high enough level of value (and thus they no longer have a valid enough reason to do them with any sense or regularity), will they be running them even as a daily roulette? That remains to be seen for certain, but if history is any indication the odds would support the stance of "not likely".

I'm surprised you can't see any truth in that, even when it is playing out before our very eyes right now. It's a shame you just want to put the blinders on and have chosen to refuse to participate further in any debate contrary to your apparently more narrow world view. Interesting how conveniently people can do that on the internet....

The bigger point of my FFXI example though, was to demonstrate that SE (you know, the company that developed and runs both games) already has a playbook for this very debate to review as to how to proceed from here. It provides a very cautionary tale to help them best determine how to proceed...if in fact they feel inclined to even address any player's concerns on the topic. After all... this is SE, and their scope and criteria on "balance" has always been and will likely remain a great mystery to all of us.

[Krr]

Players won't avoid an i90 synced AK because it's 'too hard'. They won't do it because it'll take way too damn long for the terrible piss tiny rewards it gives nowadays.

Level 50 Dungeons from the 2.0-2.2 bracket barely give enough tomestones or useful gear to be worth speedrunning in 15 or so minutes, and a Roulette bonus very barely pushes them into 'worth doing, once a day, if I feel like it'. That's compared to other, more recent dungeons, notwithstanding other even more efficient non-dungeon-run ways of getting 'stones in 2.5.