Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Akiza]

The problem is Summoner has been incorrectly classified as sustain in truth their DPS works like this they have a slow ramp up then Bursts at their peak then after 4min they bursts around their bottom which is why throughout long encounters they lose DPS and it applies to all DoT DPS. SE should reduce the cool down on Enkindle to 60s and reduce the cool down of Aetherflow to 30s to bring Summoner in line with other DPS.

[Dwill]

The math on the % damage difference is a few pages back, you can look for it, not linking it lol. Granted blms still do more for sure but the point is, is that those calculations were off, not really intentionally though.

Gotta say though with all this blm is king of aoe fight stuff floating around, I think people need to look at how scary a well played nin or drg is in aoe. in shiva ex i finally saw four digit dps during adds (cumulative, not in the moment) but don't worry the nin was about 100 behind me at the time... shits ridiculous lol. Despite pet troubles a well played smn can potentially trump a blm in that fight, the parse numbers I've seen at least show that possibility anyway.

But on the summoner thing, I can't agree with the smns on it... Sorry I'm not against the buff, but what most suggest is simply too much.

I think everyone though is aware at Ninja's stupidly high damage all around, which includes their excessively huge single target -> AoE damage ratio. Fact still remains though that even played at the highest level, Black Mage will still be ahead off them. And I saw the calculations and while yes 12% is off, 8-10% with procs is still pretty decent difference between both. The thing is that no sane summoners is asking Black Mage to get nerfed. We're just asking to at the very least deal equal single target to them. And while we're on that topic, I'd like for both Summoners and Black Mages to have their damage gap versus melee reduced. There's no reason at all for them to have such a huge cap versus casters, especially with FCoB showing us that they aren't really in a more dangerous position being in melee. I mean, if that's really their argument, then they wouldn't be against Summoners getting the melee damage treatment because that's where we are all the time for auto-attack damage.

[Dyvid]

Edit: NVM, I think I'm done with this thread....

[Romsca]

Akiza, summoner is a sustain damage class. The difference between a burst and sustain is in the gap between their highest and lowest attacks and the duration of these phases. Hyper theoretical, 3 stacks astral fire increases fire 3 by 80 potency(not actual numbers). You have enough mana to cast it 3 times then switch to umbral ice and cast 3 blizzard 3s. On a chart that would range between 240(low end) and 320(high) with your average at 280 potency(middle). Summoner, other than fester/enkindle/critical, peaks at the number of dots/ruin/pet they have going and they stay at that peak thoughout the fight. So their spread is much tighter and their average dps is also very, very close to their max output. So when they take a hit in uptime on dots you will see their average shift more than a black mages. Summoner does not need more AoE potential. Do I think bane should affect 4 targets instead of 3, yes, because that would make a total of 5 targets instead 4 like it is now. Grouping up the mobs to burn them with AoE is the current method to killing, well, a group of mobs. But when SE starts bringing in more mobs that gain serious buffs, read wipe group kind of buffs, when they are close together then summoner will be needed more than black mage. That's the difference between the two classes. Black mage is all about destructive magic and that reflects in how they play. Burst single target with high and low phases (astral fire/umbral ice) and good AoE. Summoner keeps the pressure on with constant damage and can multi task between mobs when they have to remain apart, black mage can't do that with the lamia fatedealers in SCoB turn 2, (farthest I've gone yet in turns). That is our utility in a fight. Show me any current class that could handle multiple mobs without grouping them close together.

Casters and range do not need to be on par with melee. We have the trade off of getting to avoid damaging mechanics and should be bringing utility to make up for that difference in damage, no one says "we don't need the bard". If black mage was given resurrection as a cross class, no healer would ever cast revive again in a fight. Why? Black mage has no mana issues. If summoner had better mana management, bigger mana pool/regen, then healers wouldn't need to either. Honestly bards should save their mage ballad for healers going low on mana or in the event of a blm/smn or healer dying to help get them back in the fight faster. Rest of the time should be foes and paeon. That 10% boost from Foes alone is helpful. I'm not sure about FCoB groups but I have a feeling most bards don't manage their songs properly.

Summoner just needs a boost in their mana pool and readjustment of their weapon damage or conversion int > damage. These two things alone will give summoner sustainability though long fights and bring their dps up and keep their playstyle unique from the other classes. Pets are a whole different story.

[Shizuna]

Is there actually a dedicated a SMN chart or are you just comparing what you think SMN's can do against those numbers Puro Striders list?

There isn't a dedicated SMN chart, but there is an actual leader boards (with every class on it) I'm looking at, but it's from a different FC and I don't think I'm allowed to show it since I'm not from that FC. Then there's word of mouth and parses that people have shown me of what SMN's can do. I also have myself that does FCOB as SMN, but I'm not the best or anything. So I'm not pulling things out of my ass if that's what you think.

If you want proof of what I can do, this is what I did recently: http://imgur.com/ssvMTpX,Nktbl9d,JBs2ect,5SPbI4g
The gearset I used: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PH1X (for t10-11 instead of using crafted belt, I used dreadwyrm belt)

That sounds like a good idea anyways, looking at Puro Striders list. I can prove to people how SMN's are doing right now and everyone can see how they compare against other DPS then you guys can judge for yourself if they are at the right place. If anyone who has done FCOB would like to contribute, please show me some parses/numbers of the highest you've done as SMN for every turn.

[scarebearz]

There isn't a dedicated SMN chart, but there is an actual leader boards (with every class on it) I'm looking at, but it's from a different FC

1 FC from 1 Server?

[Shizuna]

1 FC from 1 Server?

Yeah. Sorry I typo. Someone is really nit-picky.

[Sen_Terrechant]

The problem is Summoner has been incorrectly classified as sustain in truth their DPS works like this they have a slow ramp up then Bursts at their peak then after 4min they bursts around their bottom which is why throughout long encounters they lose DPS and it applies to all DoT DPS. SE should reduce the cool down on Enkindle to 60s and reduce the cool down of Aetherflow to 30s to bring Summoner in line with other DPS.

No. No.

You give us a 30 second cooldown on Aetherflow, that alone made us overpowered.

[Shizuna]

I asked around on my server to confirm how some of the SMN's do in FCOB cause I don't really have names for people, outside of my server, who told me what/how they did and plus I can't remember every single numbers, only an estimate.

It's on the 2nd tab: http://goo.gl/kTliGH

Some of it is not complete cause I only asked their static but did not want to bother them to give me extensive data. But this is just proof of what a SMN can do in general and you can compare it to the BLM's in Puro Strider's DPS epeen chart.

[OneWingedSora]

snip

BLMs can do 550-600+on Shiva Extreme.