Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[SomnusNemoris]

It is not biased at all. The small data sample is no argument. 10-13 people is enough data to provide at least some sense. And as I have said before, Rational Gaze is a top tier hardcore raider who can be used as a legitimate way of comparing BLM DPS with SMN DPS. If this player has 30-80 DPS lower than top tier Black Mages (with 10 higher ilvl!), then if that does not tell you anything, then what does? The data samples are simply halved, which isn't that big of a deal. Do you honestly think there are Summoners out there who have yet to post their 580 T10 DPS parse? Do you honestly think that there are SMN out there who radically improve upon the already collected data? And if so, what argument do you bring against the fact that such a scenario can be equally true for BLM?
Also note that in comparison, to low end of the charts are lower on BLM than it is on SMN, perhaps that also says something about the data.
I have said 40+ DPS, which is a significant number, thank you. How many % extra do you think 8% is from a boss? 3-4! Not a big deal, right?
The SMN does not need a pure 40+ DPS boost by the way. It needs to outshine BLM in the ST departement while mainting the decent AoE and BLM needs to outshine SMN on the AoE deperatment while maintaining decent ST damage, which they already have.

[scarebearz]

Do you honestly think that there are SMN out there who radically improve upon the already collected data?

Yes I do and I'm sure we'll see higher BLM numbers too at some point.

You don't really seem to read or understand my posts, you just seem to want to rant at me xD

I argued BLM should remain the same and SMN should be brought on par overall, you posts appear to actually agree with this statement, in a somewhat angry manner xD

You have said your posting from an Alt character? So I assume I know you main? Does your mains name begin with a V?

[Sen_Terrechant]

snip

The thing is, we would gain 5-10 DPS simply from having our mana problems fixed and being able to do our ideal rotation. Thats why i mentioned a small potency buff, because we wont need much after that.

Id also like to note that Rational Gaze is in DnT who has parses specifically set up to maximize DPS on each player. So yes we are seeing the very limits of the SMN in that parse (every add was kept alive for the DoTs, the BLM only did 375 DPS etc...)

So you are most likely right in that a small potency buff would not be enough, as im sure he didnt need for mana (most likely got ballad at one point), but its far better to buff slowly then overbuff.

[SomnusNemoris]

I understand your posts perfectly and if you think that BLM will come with higher numbers too, that negates your point, makes it useless and lets the gap remain between BLM and SMN. You basically refuted your own argument in a way. I agree with you alright, I just noted that 40+ DPS is a significant amount of damage. I'll tell you right away, there won't be radically changed parses over time for SMN, because I honestly believe that the result of Rational Gaze (with 135 weapon and ilvl 130) reflects the reality of SMN DPS as it is. Maybe a maximum of 10-15 DPS can be pushed out, which of course is still ludicrous in comparison.
The "rant" by the way comes mostly from you agreeing with Sen who had a completely the opinion that a small buff and an MP fix would do the trick. If you can close the current gap with just that, I think that is wishful thinking. But in the end, yes, SMN should be brought to the same heights as BLM by making it excel in a part of damage dealing. If it was up to me, I would bring casters closer to melee as well. The gap there is also a little bit too big, imo.

[scarebearz]

I understand your posts perfectly and if you think that BLM will come with higher numbers too, that negates your point

It does not negate my point at all, I believe we will see bigger increases in the SMN chart than we will for the BLM one that has been around longer and has much more data.

I agree the gap between casters and melee is a bit big, but it is not far off what it should be imo.

Back when most static slots for t9 were filled with SMN and people were making a big fuss about BLM being weak, BLM got around a 6-8% buff and I do consider that to be a small buff.

Decent players were still doing very well as BLM dps-wise and it was fine for meeting the T9 dps-checks back then.

On content were MP is not an issue (Ex's, BCoB, SCoB), some SMN still seem to do very nice damage and the gap appears to be much smaller, though that is from personal experiance only.

SE are pretty good with class balance and before long SMN will be adjusted, pretty sure they know the actual difference in numbers and will fix it (like they have done with other classes), but it won't happen over night.

[Minorinz]

-

There is a reason why summoner's dps charts are rising slowly but within a relatively small deviation while blms are getting better dps parses with gear variation- it's called 'skill cap', for a summoner to break such a high number it takes perfection and perfection is almost impossible. Not mention that more than half of the nation switched to BLM so OFC there will be a lack on distribution. There is not much to reward a summoner with even with them going perfect because blms can just mess around and still get higher numbers.

[SomnusNemoris]

The fact that something is around longer does not mean that there will be data that radically improves on the other data, that is just a fallacy. Please refute my argument that the top tier raider Rational Gaze will most likely not see a huge increase piling upon his own input. It is not irrational to think that a top tier raider respesents the limit to which SMN can go, but as I have said, I do believe that there might be an extra 10-15 DPS to be gained there. Which still leaves a significant gap. There is absolutely no reason, rationally, to believe that the data SMN now have compiled is something to be radically improved upon. Actually, I have never seen a Summoner do more in coil, in videos, in parses and so on. I'll bet you right now that we will not see a radical improvent for Summoners and I think I have a strong case for thinking so.
You will most likely remember the likes of Lipton Icetea and the other BLM that was with him who claimed that a BLM buff was not needed by showing their immense DPS numbers. They could outDPS a SMN with little effort but for the expection of T7 and 9. But even then, it would still be close. Now that BLM had the buff, the best of BLM push out tremendous amounts of numbers, and a lot higher than the SMN potentional. In second coil, SMN was good, alright, but BLM and SMN were almost equal. After the buff, not so much. But that's the last thing I am going to say about it. We agree that SMN needs to be on the same foot, and that to me, is all that matters.

[scarebearz]

Snip

I don't know who Rational Gaze is and if he's the worlds "best" SMN or not, nor do I know the other names mentioned.

With full i110 gears and i115 weapon, after the BLM buff I believe SMN and BLM were about equal overall in SCoB, pretty darn close anyway.

[Sen_Terrechant]

I don't know who Rational Gaze is and if he's the worlds "best" SMN or not, nor do I know the other names mentioned.

With full i110 gears and i115 weapon, after the BLM buff I believe SMN and BLM were about equal overall in SCoB, pretty darn close anyway.

That was before the BLM buff. Once BLM got buffed it pulled ahead in every single turn. The reason SMN were still 'top caster deepz' in SCoB is mostly the fact they were so good in T7. One could argue T9 also suited them due to the amount of jumps that DoTs kept ticking.


Anyways; SMN needs a buff. We all know this, we need better mana management and better damage. I would love to actually be able to come close to a melee without having a billion adds to AoE.

[ShinryuReishiki]

Comparing the DPS charts is a bit silly; I just see it as something fun to do. SMN's numbers depend far too much on the performance of the others in the party. If adds die slower, that's more DPS for the SMN. More Bennus, more DPS for the SMN. If someone dies, more DPS for the SMN. This is true for BLM as well, but the impact is greater on SMN given the reliance on DoTs. I feel like T11 is the only one where you could have a fair comparison between jobs.

I'm sure Rational Gaze is pretty good, but look at the data on that chart. In every turn, his BLM and BRD died once. That makes it a lot easier to reach higher numbers. My best T13 for example was because the BLM died; I've yet to come close to that on a clean run.