In-Game Parser.

[Havenchild]

So. Up until now I've been against parsers. My argument has been completely wrong. COMPLETELY WRONG!

There is nothing wrong with a parser. It's a glorified calculator that retrieves data from the battle log that is already there. It simplifies it and puts it into a read out that people can understand.

The problem lies with the person who uses it, not the tool itself.

A parser is like a hammer.
Both are tools. - A hammer is used to build. A parser is used to read out numbers.
Both have constructive uses. - A hammer can help build a home. A parser can help improve where a player is weak in their rotation.
Both can cause harm. - A hammer can be used to bludgeon someone to death. A parser can be used to call out weak chains in parties in a malicious manner.

Both are tools, it depends on the wielder of these tools to determine their overall effect and outcome.

If this is not sarcasm, then welcome to this side of the argument.

[Kazumac]

But you have to use your example as a double edge sword. Having a parser like what pc players have will result in even more alienation, lets be honest. Like you said, right now we have it based on ilvl and achievement and even gil amounts. What do you think will actually happen once you start adding another set of numbers to judge people by? What needs to happen is that people that are calling for parser have to put their heads together and think of a way that gets them the parser and doesn't allow the player base to feel discriminated against/ picked on. Because believe it or not, if a majority of the casual players leave this game because of the few elites that are pushing for this, the game will fail. have to cater to the masses.

I don't think it will increase, the players will merely switch the useless measure of performance (ilvl) for a meaningful one like actual dps performance. Personally I see inflated ilvl requirements because players want to be darned sure they can complete the content, with an actual dps measure, you have a more accurate way to judge and you might even get into groups based on your actual skill rather than an unnecessarily inflated ilvl.

So no, my argument is not a double edged sword. I believe this metric would replace current metrics with meaningful ones and not increase the number of groups with requirements to join them. Granted this is just a theory (as is yours) of what would happen and neither of us will know for sure unless it is actually added to the game.

[Krr]

Honestly given how many tools are used to gate players out of PF groups irrationally, like clear flags that you can buy for a couple million gil with no practice at all, including a rational one (A DPS measurement for fights that, as of recent, have included very tight DPS checks) seems to cause little harm at worst, and could even remove irrational requirement checks at best.

[Kazumac]

Honestly given how many tools are used to gate players out of PF groups irrationally, like clear flags that you can buy for a couple million gil with no practice at all, including a rational one (A DPS measurement for fights that, as of recent, have included very tight DPS checks) seems to cause little harm at worst, and could even remove irrational requirement checks at best.

Thank you. It is funny how people think keeping everyone in the dark and ignorant enhances and improves the quality of the community... /sigh

[Nominous]

This paragraph quite clearly shows why implementing a parser is not worth Yoshi's time. The rotation exists, but it's existence has no real impact on endgame fights due to mechanics; which makes the argument that a player must learn it blindly (and make no bones about it that's exactly what you are advocating, as your reasoning for learning it can be summed up as "for it's own sake") actively harmful to a player's performance because there's no context as to why. Even in your post you fail to point out why the concept of the rotation even exists within the context of the fight.

It's easy though. The rotation shows how a Job's abilities synergize, and how each one affects the other positively to use the whole potential the class provides. It's a concrete example of the value of each move.

And how much "betterment" is enough to have succeeded? No, "betterment" cannot be the end-goal of adding a parser, as that only has meaning in the transition. While perfection is unreasonable to expect, it is a fully formed idea that has concrete meaning within the context of the game and the raiding player base's expectation therein.

What about the other elements of social engineering? Adding a parser is all well and good, but you'll find that it'll have little effect if there's no reason to use it. So why not add reward mechanisms for actual excellence. Take the upgrade items like Oil of Time/Carboncoat out of the loot tables for all new content and only reward them to players that achieve performance milestones. There's now a connection between your performance and your progression.

Like the poster you were quoting said, a rotation past your opener is effectively a priority system. Understanding this priority system at the very least, will have you at baseline competence, and will get you through most non-current-raid content. It's the literal starting point as a DPS (let's call it crawling). Intermediate skills would be refining your opener to be optimal, not clipping DoT's, and understanding off GCD's and how to weave them in. Advanced would be things like when to multi-DoT, when to eat mechanics for more damage output, and making fight-by-fight specific changes to your rotation to do more damage.

Not understanding your rotation at the very least, makes raids/trials more difficult experiences than they need to be. In a game where others depend on you in order to succeed, it's irresponsible, and unfair to come to content and waste their time. That's regardless of the difficulty. That is to say...Don't go in someone's pony farm party if you're going to make it take 2 minutes longer due to your inability to hold your own weight.

Mechanics don't invalidate your rotation, they punish you for not understanding it. If you have to stop DPS for 5 seconds, and your buff is about to run out, but you continue your combo anyway when you're done with the mechanic, you're losing a pretty big chunk of damage. Things like this lead to difficulties in a fight. Making a fight more stressful due to a personal decision to stay uninformed (essentially, is what you're saying) is again, pretty unfair. This is not only your game, or your experience, it's other people's time.

As for re-working rewards to be performance based... that's more of a vicious idea than an in-game, personal parser. It not only promotes, but rewards people for doing whatever they can (mechanics be damned) to get high numbers. This is different from the idea of striving to be better because of personal reasons, or because you want to have healthy competition, or to hold your own weight. Also, assuming everyone is performing at 100% efficiency, some Jobs are known to be outliers (basically looking at MNK before NIN release/DRG buff) and would always get the reward. Let's assume that every class did the same damage. With certain end-game fights having RNG mechanics that force you to stop DPS, you'd be at the mercy of the game sometimes. It's a bad idea.

I have faith that this dev team, if no other, has the ability to implement a personal parser, no matter how thinly veiled, in a positive way. Not only in a positive way, but in a way that shows a player they can improve, and are doing well. Tutorials in this game are the next logical step, and if not now, then I don't see when they'd ever do it.
There's large importance to DPS, and I don't see that changing in the future. I don't see them making any non-story content any easier, and the further the game progresses and evolves, the less they're worried about the 'new' or 'uninitiated' player.

[QiLymePye]

I don't think it will increase, the players will merely switch the useless measure of performance (ilvl) for a meaningful one like actual dps performance. Personally I see inflated ilvl requirements because players want to be darned sure they can complete the content, with an actual dps measure, you have a more accurate way to judge and you might even get into groups based on your actual skill rather than an unnecessarily inflated ilvl.

So no, my argument is not a double edged sword. I believe this metric would replace current metrics with meaningful ones and not increase the number of groups with requirements to join them. Granted this is just a theory (as is yours) of what would happen and neither of us will know for sure unless it is actually added to the game.

But see, thats the point. its all just numbers. You can make data fit your case at anytime but it doesn't mean its correct. Just like someone else stated, having that parser the way it is now will not help many players. You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output. This game does have the dps checks in the end game but teamwork should be more important than anything else.

And also, this game needs more of things that makes the community come together, not pit them against each other. Thats why parser is really only in PvP, because you are competing. In PvE, you should be helping each other more to obtain your goals. but whatever...let them add it. I say they put it on a trial period, add it temporarily just to see how it works. guarantee they remove it afterwards unless they add it in a why to be more helpful than damning.

[Krr]

You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output.

The only situation where you could possibly have this occur with DPS roles in a Second or Final Coil situation is a Bard refusing to sing. On top of this, all recent (T10+) content basically expects all players to be DPSing so hard that the only thing keeping them below their 100% uptime training dummy DPS is the boss occasionally turning invincible or moving out of range. Failing a mechanic causes you to die, dying causes your DPS to go down, so players looking to "max their DPS" will do whatever it takes to stay alive.

Outside of these fights that require near-perfect DPS peformance? There are no community gating tools that keep players from participating. Crystal Tower, story Trials, Dungeons, et al don't have scads of party finders saying "clear or kick", and they won't gain scads of players kicking people over their DPS all of a sudden. Even then, there's few situations where coping with a mechanic should meaningfully slow your DPS. You'll see a 10-20% decrease at worst, and that's usually due to super outdated stuff dying or triggering mechanics so fast nobody's job makes sense any more.

In fact, the only fight I can think of where "DPS focusing on maxing their numbers" would cause someone to 'fail' at a role is Moggle Mog EX. The rest of the time, ignoring a mechanic to burn is asking to die, which makes your DPS worse.

[Kazumac]

But see, thats the point. its all just numbers. You can make data fit your case at anytime but it doesn't mean its correct. Just like someone else stated, having that parser the way it is now will not help many players. You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output. This game does have the dps checks in the end game but teamwork should be more important than anything else.

And also, this game needs more of things that makes the community come together, not pit them against each other. Thats why parser is really only in PvP, because you are competing. In PvE, you should be helping each other more to obtain your goals. but whatever...let them add it. I say they put it on a trial period, add it temporarily just to see how it works. guarantee they remove it afterwards unless they add it in a why to be more helpful than damning.

A parser is not a sole consideration for proper play. But it is a meaningful metric for which we do not have available and that it is why it is being asked for.

As for your comment about parsers leading to improper play, most high end successful raid groups use them and well... I doubt we are arguing that they don't know how to play their jobs right?

People making judgement calls on uninformed half assumptions as we are forced to do today is at least equally damning to the community as a whole. Again I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye but I cannot in my right mind argue for an ignorant and uninformed player base.

There have been suggestions players can opt to share their data or not that are only applicable to preformed parties and I would be all for that to allow for both play styles. (this would not fix the divide)

[Zephyranthes]

Yoshi P himself said this would never be in the game as it would seem like SE is justifying chastising someone based on numbers. I'm all for parsers in game, but when the man says it'll never happen, it's never going to happen. He didn't even leave it open ended for a future possibility.

Nothing is final. He can just do something which he said they'll not do before.

Unlikely? Yes.
Never? No.

[Faelandaea]

Nothing is final. He can just do something which he said they'll not do before.

Unlikely? Yes.
Never? No.

And hopefully it'll stay VERY unlikely. We already have parsers we can use. For those on consoles, they have friends who use PCs that can parse them if they so choose.

MY concern is people wanting the devs to steer away from developing useful content that is for the game itself to develop something that we already have access to via other means. I'd rather the Devs keep making other new content for us and just let us use the tools we already have access to. It's already been proven time and again in this thread that EVERYONE already has access to parsing. People choose what platform they want to game on - if you choose to use a console and not a PC, then you choose to have your parsing done by the many PC friends you have in your FC that have PCs. Unless, of course, you are in that FC I keep seeing running around that only invites PS4 players. Talk about limiting yourselves there