In-Game Parser.

[Kazumac]

But see, thats the point. its all just numbers. You can make data fit your case at anytime but it doesn't mean its correct. Just like someone else stated, having that parser the way it is now will not help many players. You will have players just trying to maximize their numbers, even if it means playing their role incorrect because they want the output. This game does have the dps checks in the end game but teamwork should be more important than anything else.

And also, this game needs more of things that makes the community come together, not pit them against each other. Thats why parser is really only in PvP, because you are competing. In PvE, you should be helping each other more to obtain your goals. but whatever...let them add it. I say they put it on a trial period, add it temporarily just to see how it works. guarantee they remove it afterwards unless they add it in a why to be more helpful than damning.

A parser is not a sole consideration for proper play. But it is a meaningful metric for which we do not have available and that it is why it is being asked for.

As for your comment about parsers leading to improper play, most high end successful raid groups use them and well... I doubt we are arguing that they don't know how to play their jobs right?

People making judgement calls on uninformed half assumptions as we are forced to do today is at least equally damning to the community as a whole. Again I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye but I cannot in my right mind argue for an ignorant and uninformed player base.

There have been suggestions players can opt to share their data or not that are only applicable to preformed parties and I would be all for that to allow for both play styles. (this would not fix the divide)

[Deculture]

I can say with confidence that groups that are successfully clearing FCoB most likely have at least one player parsing in their group.

Like it or not, with the amount of DPS checks found in endgame (and it's even creeping into "casual" encounters - see: Odin), parsers are a necessity. They are a tool. Something that collects and displays data.

The people that are against information, especially information that's been readily available to one platform since the game has launched is just mind boggling even though it's a small minority going by this thread.

edit:

And hopefully it'll stay VERY unlikely. We already have parsers we can use. For those on consoles, they have friends who use PCs that can parse them if they so choose.

MY concern is people wanting the devs to steer away from developing useful content that is for the game itself to develop something that we already have access to via other means. I'd rather the Devs keep making other new content for us and just let us use the tools we already have access to. It's already been proven time and again in this thread that EVERYONE already has access to parsing. People choose what platform they want to game on - if you choose to use a console and not a PC, then you choose to have your parsing done by the many PC friends you have in your FC that have PCs. Unless, of course, you are in that FC I keep seeing running around that only invites PS4 players. Talk about limiting yourselves there

The devs don't have to spend any time on making an in-house parser. They're already making the addon API public in Heavensward, so as long as players have access to the combat log then you'll start seeing player made parsers being made and thrown up.

[Wildsprite]

Like it or not, with the amount of DPS checks found in endgame (and it's even creeping into "casual" encounters - see: Odin), parsers are a necessity.

I call BS on this one. they are not now nor were they ever really a necessity. IF they really were the devs would have them in the game.
you can argue all the valid points you want in favor of parsers but this is not one of them.

[Dwill]

I call BS on this one. they are not now nor were they ever really a necessity. IF they really were the devs would have them in the game.
you can argue all the valid points you want in favor of parsers but this is not one of them.

Have fun doing Odin with people who can't meet the check because they want to "play their way" or people not meeting T8's check without full Echo.

[Wildsprite]

Have fun doing Odin with people who can't meet the check because they want to "play their way" or people not meeting T8's check without full Echo.

I know pleanty of players who beat the DPS checks on things without parsers. want to know how? simply going in and learning what happens when.
your agrument is invalid.

It's possible to beat content without a parser, but it's putting self-imposed limits on yourself (and others) that don't need to be there. You don't need a speedometer in your car to know you're going too fast, or too slow on the freeway. Enjoy that speeding ticket though, when you thought you were doing okay, but didn't have an exact readout on your speed.

The same exact logic applies to end-game content. You don't need the meter there to have a general idea of if you're doing good or not. But having a parse on hand, while you're fighting, helps you make the necessary adjustments (using poison pots, or saving them if your raid DPS isn't on track) to actually beat a boss, instead of wipe to it. Do you get the point?

this is a game, the devs expect it to be played a certain way.
comparing this to driving a car is not a good argument. it is not legal to drive a car that has no spedometer in it for one thing. try again with something that might actually convince the devs of your argument because I assure you your comparison to a car most definitely will not.

[Dwill]

I know pleanty of players who beat the DPS checks on things without parsers. want to know how? simply going in and learning what happens when.
your agrument is invalid.

Anecdotal evidences are worthless. Your argument is invalid.

Fun game, isn't it ?

It's possible to beat content without a parser, but it's putting self-imposed limits on yourself (and others) that don't need to be there. You don't need a speedometer in your car to know you're going too fast, or too slow on the freeway. Enjoy that speeding ticket though, when you thought you were doing okay, but didn't have an exact readout on your speed.

The same exact logic applies to end-game content. You don't need the meter there to have a general idea of if you're doing good or not. But having a parse on hand, while you're fighting, helps you make the necessary adjustments (using poison pots, or saving them if your raid DPS isn't on track) to actually beat a boss, instead of wipe to it. Do you get the point?

Except some people will never improve because they see big numbers on a chain combo and literally only use that one chain with their buffs having terrible uptime but they still think they do good because big number once every so often.

[Nominous]

this is a game, the devs expect it to be played a certain way.
comparing this to driving a car is not a good argument. it is not legal to drive a car that has no spedometer in it for one thing. try again with something that might actually convince the devs of your argument because I assure you your comparison to a car most definitely will not.

The example holds weight simply because I'm not debating legality, I'm talking about being informed, or lack of information. It's pretty much wording at that point. I could literally just say, "You could do x activity without x meter and you could probably judge the information pretty well. However without x meter you might possibly mess up in x way." It's not exclusive to a speedometer, or parsing, but it means the same thing, regardless of legality. You can do well, but if you don't have a precise readout on what you're doing, you're blindly hoping that you're doing the right thing.

This is important in the end-game environment because there ARE strict checks, and the difference between pushing a phase could just be switching up your rotation, or using a poison pot, or replacing a member. Knowing the actual variable which changed to bring about success is entirely ambiguous without a parser, though. You could push a phase, but not know why. You could be doing what you consider to be your 'best' rotation, but not meet the enrage timer. Could have been another player doing more DPS that pushed your phase. Could have been your poison pot. Could have been a weird amount of crits. If you're not meeting enrage timers, maybe it wasn't you doing poorly. Maybe another member was. Accountability is important, if you intend on being a part of end-game fights. Empathy is too, because your enjoyment is important, but when you're with 7 other people, there's is no less important than yours. Don't waste time. Don't stay uninformed because, "It's worked for me in the past." There's no good reason to be uninformed.

All of this still means the same thing for the pro-parse argument- Having more information does NOT hurt you. It's the information in the wrong hands, that does.

None of this changes the argument against having a parser in-game. The only adverse, or negative thing that it would bring in implementation, is a more widely available tool that people already use. There's no argument against keeping parsers out of game, other than, "I don't want the possibility of criticism". They can't protect people from something as vague as that, by with-holding something like a parser.

[Nominous]

I call BS on this one. they are not now nor were they ever really a necessity. IF they really were the devs would have them in the game.
you can argue all the valid points you want in favor of parsers but this is not one of them.

It's possible to beat content without a parser, but it's putting self-imposed limits on yourself (and others) that don't need to be there. You don't need a speedometer in your car to know you're going too fast, or too slow on the freeway. Enjoy that speeding ticket though, when you thought you were doing okay, but didn't have an exact readout on your speed.

The same exact logic applies to end-game content. You don't need the meter there to have a general idea of if you're doing good or not. But having a parse on hand, while you're fighting, helps you make the necessary adjustments (using poison pots, or saving them if your raid DPS isn't on track) to actually beat a boss, instead of wipe to it. Do you get the point? It IS a necessity when it comes down to being a serious end-game player, and even as someone who's even taken a passing interest in getting into it.

Being educated about how well you're doing something is never a bad thing, and that's the root of why I don't think many pro-parser people understand the opposing arguments. It's not going to ruin anyone's fun (any more than it already does).

[Lycelle]

DPS checks are like tug of war.

8 People against 1 big man. If all 8 people are pulling, you can pull that big man into the mud. However that big man is strong and can pull all of you, however if everyone pulls their own weight you can resist the pull and manage to pull back twice as hard. That's what a DPS check is, it's a tug of war between DPS and the boss and if you can't do that as a group, then you're going to fail. A parser is nothing more than a tool to spot a weak chain. You cannot blame a parser for how it is used, simply because it is a in itself a glorified calculator. You can however blame the approach made towards the effort to help someone improve their DPS. It's the attitude that matters when you become the bearer of bad news.

Raid Leader Don: Hey. Great job tonight guys, we're gonna however have to try harder. We keep failing the DPS check. Why is that? Let's take a look at the data here and see what we can find.

The raid leader goes though the parsing information.

Raid Leader Don: Amy. Good job on Monk. You were top DPS! Pulling 430
Amy:
Raider Leader Don: Anthony, excellent job on Summoner. Pulling in at 398
Anthony: Hell yeah!
Raid Leader Don: Jackson. You were a bit low tonight, but you still did good as Bard tonight, that song really helped us though,336. Could do for improvement but still good job.
Jackson: Alright. I'll have to work on my rotation and dodging mechanics. I did die so that's my fault, but I can fix it.
Raid Leader Don: Maggie...honey. You were the lowest DPS tonight. What do you think you're doing wrong in your rotation? Your Dragoon did so well last raid, but right now your only clocking in at 297.
Maggie: I'm not sure. I think when Blood for Blood is up and I died, I lost DPS that much is for sure. But I think my rotational is off during some of the mechanics so I lost DPS as well. Sorry I'll work with Jackson next week and we can practice. That sound cool Jackson?
Jackson: Sure. Sounds good to me.
Raid Leader Don: Awesome! Good job tonight guys, let's shoot for improvement next week. Try to cap your Tomes and get a piece in if you can, that'll help too.

This is the kind of motivation a parser can bring if used correctly. There are a number of reasons "why" DPS numbers CAN be low and hold a group back, but that is where a parser is used. It is used to figure out what is going wrong, whether it be mechanics, rotation issues or gear not being up to par in terms of BiS. All it does is take what is already there in the Battle Log and cuts out all the fluff and gives the raw numbers. So if you want to really be technical, the game "has" a built in parser called your Battle Log. You can sift through it, pull out all the numbers and crunch them. Sure it will take you awhile, but it's the same thing as using a parser, except the Battle Log tells you everything that happens, and a parser just simplifies it for you to read. Nothing more nothing less.

[Gardes]

Long post

Parser isn't just for dps. It can also be used to analyze boss moves, tanks and healers too. I think I made a post listing various example somewhere in this forum. Let me check...

Here:

You can check almost anything. Our OT was having trouble taking the adds in phase 3 of t9 and we weren't sure why. He just keeps failing at it and someone else looked around in the parser and turns out he's missing quite a bit. We just assumed that everyone would already know what their accuracy needed to be at but apparently he didn't. Oh hey, guess how we know our acc limits? Some early birds tested them for us! We're now farming t9 with the same method and having no problems with adds.

Another example, turn 9's phase 4 where the boss starts using a multi-hit move that can do a total damage of more than the tank's hp. As the tank I died to it and people start wondering if my mitigation was late or in the wrong order and whether I should switch them around because the attack alternates in damage strength against me. I was sure that I did it perfectly and I didn't get myself killed. Someone else looked around in the parser again and I was right because the damage I'm taking from claws was minimal from all of them and it couldn't have killed me. After an even closer look, it was found out that I got killed by someone's thunder debuff and I didn't need to change my play style.

Another example! Back in turn 8 before echo, we were reforming the group and got a new healer who has never done the turn. I personally recruited him because I used to do the 1st binding coil of bahamut as a static with him and thought he was good. We were having trouble keeping the tank alive (wasn't me at the time) and people started looking at this new whm and he was getting exasperated because he was trying to do his best and our sch started getting sarcastic with him. So again, someone else looked at the numbers and he started noticing that the sch's healing numbers are suspiciously low considering he is much better geared than whm (half when he has i110 book and the whm has i90 zenith). We didn't tell this to any of the healers because we weren't sure if this is normal. Shortly after the sch left due to irl schedules (for real) and we tried another sch and we suddenly don't have anymore problems and we looked at the numbers again. The new sch is also better geared and more experienced at turn 8 and his healing numbers are higher by a little bit than the whm so we now know it was the previous sch slacking and blaming the other healer. But I suppose that's water under the bridge but at least we found out why.