Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Nux]

snip

Not in FFT at least with all those friendly fire, although i would choose hero job over them anytime.
Give me my Temple Knight now SE !!!

SMN is a DEAD class anyway, OP should change it class
Con :
Abysmal visual effect with exception for Tri-Dis and LB's,
God want to torture you by looking at tiny number on enemy debuff,
Your party already have SCH/WHM/BLM/MNK/NIN/DRG/BRD/WAR/PLD/GSM/BSM/LTW/CRP/ARM/WVR/ALC/BTN/MNR/FSH
Very Anti-fun to play
Artificially difficult to play correctly because god want to punish you anyway
Garlond Ironworks hates SMN and you in particular (bahamut also want you dead)
and wait there's more !! just ask anyone in here ....
Pro:
You can start smoke weed when your MP ran out you cant do s#!t anyway just sit back and relax
Conclusion:
SMN is a class for tryhard and roleplayers

Why did i insulting my own main again ?, maybe it came from the number of people telling me to change my main

[Sanguisio]

snip

lol I giggled^^

However I've noticed why do people think the game only revolves around FCOB at the moment. There are countless players who cant do FCOB etc for whatever reasons. SMN isnt bad in those duties ^^
Primals SMN good especially when you have multiple targets spaced out, e.g ramuh a SMN shits on a BLM here ^^, Levi like wise, ifrit likewise, lets throw garuda in their as well, because garuda fighting garuda is basically a chicken fight.

Comedy aside, yes for endgame content it isnt the best atm, but otherwise it isnt the crappy class people seem to be making it out to be.

[Tex_Mex]

The reason that it matters more for FCoB is because THAT is where class balance is the most important. Sure, when everyone overgears content like T1-9, ST, dungeons, etc., then it makes no difference. But that is no excuse for overlooking end game balance.

The two most important places for class balance are pvp and end game raiding. This has been true for every paid subscription MMO in existence for a long time. You can get away with balancing around casual players in F2P games, but it is still not smart to do so.

In this case, SMN fell behind because of 2 main reasons. 1) FCoB mechanics are not friendly to the places that SMN is already hurting. (utility and resource management) and 2) Gear progression and stat weights hurt the SMN more than any other class because of Spell Speed and its uselessness to a SMN.

[Akiza]

I said this in another SMN thread:
"I suppose I shouldn't be surprised when SMN starts falling to the wayside again in a Final Fantasy game, seems to happen over natural progression regardless. It should be getting enhanced in the future though with the issues people are all seeing in FCoB, which is end-game raid content and not necessarily quantitative of the Job's issues in other content, but with so many being brought up to speed with the other Jobs, I guess it's just SMN's time as well.

I stopped maining SMN awhile ao when I found more fun in WAR and MNK, since then I've been keeping it up to speed, but I just don't see it as the best case of how I'd like it to be played, especially if it doesn't really bring much to the table besides an occasional combat raise. If it ends up being a third rate class that no one wants in their groups like in XI, then SMN just can't be used "right" in a MMORPG'er I guess."

Maybe it's just that the fights in FCoB aren't to the favor of SMN's, maybe more people are noticing issues with it because a lot of other jobs have been enhanced in some way or another, and now the circle has come full tilt and it's SMN's turn, I don't know for sure.

I do seriously find it ironic that when I did play XI, being a SMN and being able to summon all of the best Avatars from the Final Fantasy universe was my biggest attractor for going through the hellish time of playing it on a 360 and doing all the updates and getting acclimated to the game itself. But once it was at 99 and ready to be played, I noticed nobody wanted SMNs in their groups. All your damage came from your pet, and you would be brought along as an extra WHM if it was needed basically in the content. So SMN's weren't wanted nearly as much as say Rune Fencer's, Ninjas sometimes, or Geomancers and Rangers. If you couldn't come along as a SMN, you weren't wanted at all on that class.

Is there some issue that keeps happening with SMN's in SE games? They seem to keep lagging behind in their games and most see them as crappy mages when we could be using a BLM or something else most of the time.

Summoner is designed as a crappy White Mage in Final Fantasy XI with long cool downs on pet abilities that did the majority of damage. Final Fantasy XIV Summoners are designed as a crappy Black Mage with a absurdly long cool down on their spike damage move Enkindle and their Fester spike behind the Aetherflow wall.
I don't agree that SE can't designed Summoners for MMORPG's. In a mmo developers have to design jobs based on what they are at their core a Black Mage uses elemental direct damage spells which specialize in sustained DPS with one bursts ability. The Summoner uses summoning magic is based around summons which specialize in spike damage, AoE and utility. If SE wants to make a Summoner correctly in MMORPG's they have to build them around the summons make them specialize in spike damage, AoE spike damage and utility and give them a sub job.

[Staris]

Battle res and a second improved virus are incredible advantages... If you wipe just because one person dies your terrible. Even world first kills have people or multiple people being battle ressed.
You can use 95% of your gear for Blackmage if the dps check for anything was ever tight enough (and its not, not even close)...

Summoner is fine until expansion.

[Tex_Mex]

Battle res and a second improved virus are incredible advantages...

Summoner is fine until expansion.

I have to respectfully disagree with your comments. A second virus is definitely useful, but the battle res comes with a heavy, HEAVY price. 1st) issue with battle res in final coil is that in most of the coils, a death by a team member puts a damage stack onto the boss that makes things more difficult for the party thereafter. 2nd) The immense mana cost for res really hurts the SMN's ability maintain high dps throughout the entire encounter. SMN is already starved for mana, and this makes using a SMN res a very difficult option.

As far as gear goes, not every SMN has both SMN and BLM leveled to 50, so that doesn't help the majority of people. There have been some very simple, and very intelligent changes suggested in this thread to try and make SMN a more worthwhile choice in final coil. I believe that SE will consider them closely.

[Sleigh]

Battle res and a second improved virus are incredible advantages... If you wipe just because one person dies your terrible. Even world first kills have people or multiple people being battle ressed.
You can use 95% of your gear for Blackmage if the dps check for anything was ever tight enough (and its not, not even close)...

Summoner is fine until expansion.

About Virus, two Super-Viruses are effectively the same as a Super-Virus and a Virus in most cases due to Antibody. Typically all Viruses on the boss will be Super-Virus from SCH while WHM/caster takes care of adds, and aside from T11 adds which don't hit hard anyway, none of the adds need Super-Virus. tl;dr - SCH viruses boss, WHM/caster alternate on adds

Similarly, Resurrection is usually not even used by SMN if a raise is needed. SCH > WHM > SMN for order, and if you get down to SMN you've entered wipe territory in most cases anyway.

[Dinocat]

Battle res and a second improved virus are incredible advantages... If you wipe just because one person dies your terrible. Even world first kills have people or multiple people being battle ressed.
You can use 95% of your gear for Blackmage if the dps check for anything was ever tight enough (and its not, not even close)...

Summoner is fine until expansion.

I don't think anyone has ever stated that battle res is not important nor an advantage that helps complete content. It's just stated that battle res coming out of a SMN in final coil is highly impractical and essentially reduces the class' capability to a point in which they become DPS inefficient in a min/max environment.

The SMN/BLM BiS and stat values are of significant different for each respective class. BLM wearing the same gear as SMN would or vice versa would result in quite a significant DPS output difference.

There are plenty of utility skill that the SMN class has but none of them are required due to the fact these utility advantages are not class exclusive. Therefore such are not truly advantages for taking a SMN over another class. Every raid runs a SCH for Super-Virus, Eye for an Eye can be cross classed by BLM/WHM/SCH, and WHM/SCH both have battle-res.

===

Why would any group take the DPS inferior SMN over any other class when the utility they bring can be gained elsewhere from more essential classes?

I believe this is the question the majority of world competition teams would ask when considering a SMN in their starting lineup. Where does SMN fit in at this point in endgame?

===

The currently low output and sustainability of a SMN in a lengthy fight, in which they already suffer from mana problems, wouldn't allow them to use the utility skills they are provided and maintain their place value in a DPS check situation. (Unless over geared and/or high raid DPS.) Like I have stated many times in the past, this does not at all mean the SMN cannot complete the content, only that they are non-optimal due to their value in a min/max situation.

Outside of running double-melee BRD BLM, I know of no composition or team that had managed to complete FCoB in the top 3 kills with a SMN.

I wonder if it is possible for a SMN in only i110 pre-2.4 gear, along with the raid in the same gear, to complete FCoB and meet the DPS check.

Perhaps Lucrezia could switch their BLM with a SMN on their next i110 only kill and prove myself and every other SMN who believes there is an issue with the class entirely wrong.

Though I do believe even if they did manage it, it would come at a cost of a significant increase in difficulty, time in content, and the necessity of some major RNG luck.

The issues brought forth are not about the SMN class ability to complete content, but the imbalance and technical problems the class suffer from on a base level in comparison to all other classes. I would imagine if all other classes had these issues then it would just be a natural part of the game. That, however, is not the case.

===

Just as a request to those stating that the SMN class is fine:

I have stated and outlined many of the issue present in multiple postings; can you refute any of the issues and explanations I have outlined? If so, please do, as I would love to converse with players with whom I can share knowledge with and theorycraft the class.

Any breakdown of why I am wrong or where my estimations and analysis' are incorrect would be appreciated.

---

Please refer to my prior posts for further information as well:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/212551-Can-someone-give-me-an-in-depth-explanation-why-Summoner-is-arguably-the-worst-DPS?p=2688169&viewfull=1#post2688169

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/204577-2.4-SMN-Class-Issues?p=2587683&viewfull=1#post2587683

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/204577-2.4-SMN-Class-Issues?p=2595719&viewfull=1#post2595719

[Akiza]

I don't think anyone has ever stated that battle res is not important nor an advantage that helps complete content. It's just stated that battle res coming out of a SMN in final coil is highly impractical and essentially reduces the class' capability to a point in which they become DPS inefficient in a min/max environment. The SMN/BLM BiS and stat values are of significant different for each respective class. BLM wearing the same gear as SMN would or vice versa would result in quite a significant DPS output difference.

There are plenty of utility skill that the SMN class has but none of them are required due to the fact these utility advantages are not class exclusive. Therefore such are not truly advantages for taking a SMN over another class. Every raid runs a SCH for Super-Virus, Eye for an Eye can be cross classed by BLM/WHM/SCH, and WHM/SCH both have battle-res.

===

Why would any group take the DPS inferior SMN over any other class when the utility they bring can be gained elsewhere from more essential classes?

I believe this is the question the majority of world competition teams would ask when considering a SMN in their starting lineup. Where does SMN fit in at this point in endgame?

===

The currently low output and sustainability of a SMN in a lengthy fight, in which they already suffer from mana problems, wouldn't allow them to use the utility skills they are provided and maintain their place value in a DPS check situation. (Unless over geared and/or high raid DPS.) Like I have stated many times in the past, this does not at all mean the SMN cannot complete the content, only that they are non-optimal due to their value in a min/max situation.

Outside of running double-melee BRD BLM, I know of no composition or team that had managed to complete FCoB in the top 3 kills with a SMN.

I wonder if it is possible for a SMN in only i110 pre-2.4 gear, along with the raid in the same gear, to complete FCoB and meet the DPS check.

Perhaps Lucrezia could switch their BLM with a SMN on their next i110 only kill and prove myself and every other SMN who believes there is an issue with the class entirely wrong.

Though I do believe even if they did manage it, it would come at a cost of a significant increase in difficulty, time in content, and the necessity of some major RNG luck.

The issues brought forth are not about the SMN class ability to complete content, but the imbalance and technical problems the class suffer from on a base level in comparison to all other classes. I would imagine if all other classes had these issues then it would just be a natural part of the game. That, however, is not the case.

===

Just as a request to those stating that the SMN class is fine:

I have stated and outlined many of the issue present in multiple postings; can you refute any of the issues and explanations I have outlined? If so, please do, as I would love to converse with players with whom I can share knowledge with and theorycraft the class.

Any breakdown of why I am wrong or where my estimations and analysis' are incorrect would be appreciated.

---

Please refer to my prior posts for further information as well:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2688169

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2587683

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2595719

Your break down on the Summoner is messed up when talking about sources of damage. DoTs are 35% of SMN damge, Fester is 20%, ruin is 10%, shadowflare is 5% and Pet is 30% of our damage. As anyone can see from percentage break down Summoners damage is limited by Dots, Aetherflow stacks and Pet.

[Judge_Xero]

My breakdown is:

DOTS including Shadow Flare - 36%
Fester - 12%
Pet 32%
Ruin 20%
With slight variations depending on the fight.