The Ninja Superthread

[treuhavik]

In making a case against using ROG vs. NIN, does this math look about right?

Cons:
+15% GDC (-35.29 DPS)
- Kassatsu+Ration (4.5 DPS)
- Fuma Shuriken (5.28 DPS)
- Suiton (2.926 DPS)
- Trick Attack (+10% damage x6/10s/60s + 6.7 DPS = approx. 41.87 DPS [Meleex2-1000, Caster-450, BRD-350, PLD-135, WAR-175])
- 20 DEX (4 DPS)
Loss: -93.866 DPS

Pros:
+ Hawk's Eye (+15 DEX/20s/90s = .67 DPS)
+ Straight Shot (+10% Crit + 7 DPS = 9.5 DPS)
+ Raging Strikes (+20% Damage/20s/180s = 11.11 DPS)
+ Venomous Bite (3.42 DPS)
+ Fracture (3.7 DPS)
Gain: +28.397 DPS

Net: -65.469 DPS

Based on 500 DPS w/ 2.5s base GCD

[treuhavik]

@Dervy

I just realized that I had 2s cast time for all Ninjutsu on the spread sheet.

Murdras are .5s cast each, so this would be accurate to include a .5s delay with 3 murdra ninjutsu, but Shuriken would be 1 and Ration 1.5. Did you account for that error?

[Arkenne]

Murdras are .5s cast each, so this would be accurate to include a .5s delay with 3 murdra ninjutsu, but Shuriken would be 1 and Ration 1.5.

Now that you mention it... if you want to swing a Ninjutsu inbetween GCD, the animation of the last skill you used also gets in the way and mudra wont hit until after that animation lock is cleared...

So it would pretty much be:
Last Weapon Skill Animation Lock Time -> about 0.3~0.5 seconds.
Each Mudra cooldown and animation (considering both the skill animation and server input acceptance) -> from 0.5~0.7 seconds
Actual Ninjutsu skill animation -> About the same 0.3~05 seconds. <- Not as much of an apparent hindrance

So in a 2.00 GCD the actual window to input a Ninjutsu is of 1.7~1.5 because of the animation lock... :|
Might vary from person to person...

[treuhavik]

Now that you mention it... if you want to swing a Ninjutsu inbetween GCD, the animation of the last skill you used also gets in the way and mudra wont hit until after that animation lock is cleared...

So it would pretty much be:
Last Weapon Skill Animation Lock Time -> about 0.3~0.5 seconds.
Each Mudra cooldown and animation (considering both the skill animation and server input acceptance) -> from 0.5~0.7 seconds
Actual Ninjutsu skill animation -> About the same 0.3~05 seconds. <- Not as much of an apparent hindrance

So in a 2.00 GCD the actual window to input a Ninjutsu is of 1.7~1.5 because of the animation lock... :|
Might vary from person to person...

Wow, you're right, I never considered animation time. Even though the GDC is counting down, you're still in animation for that last skill. Since it bleeds into your ninjutsu, that would make Huton ~3.1, Ration ~2.4 and Fuma ~1.7.

[Lavieh]

There is one minor fault:

If you have bad mudra delay (Raiton clips into your gcd by more than .2 seconds) then Fuma Shuriken will ALWAYS be a dps increase, even with Kass. The main utility of Kass is that it resets your mudra's, the crit is just icing on the cake.

Either way the DPS increase is extremely slight, even in high-end competitive raiding. So it is better for players to just choose their preference but I would argue that Fuma is better is best in almost any situation where Foe Req isn't present.

[Makototoki]

So what kind of setup are you guys using on the crossbar. I am on ps4 and would prefer not to use a mouse and kb.

[Leonus]

So what kind of setup are you guys using on the crossbar. I am on ps4 and would prefer not to use a mouse and kb.

I play on PC again now and still use a controller. I grew up on consoles and my hands feel more comfortable with a controller in my hands that on a mouse and keyboard. Plus I'm and old smash melee player so I know I have fast fingers.

The only real disadvantage I see is shikuchi usage. Other than that, your crossbar needs to be set up how you yourself would like it. Once you get used to it, you will know where everything is without having to think much about it.

I can play on mouse and keyboard, but I feel much more comfortable with a controller.

Also, wtfast for cutting down mudra lag is legit (nat available for consoles yet). It's one of the other reasons I swapped back to pc. That and being able to parse myself.

[Velhart]

Also, wtfast for cutting down mudra lag is legit (nat available for consoles yet). It's one of the other reasons I swapped back to pc. That and being able to parse myself.

Even with WTFast at 28ms at most latency, I still get lag here and there. Its much better with this yes, but mudra definitely needs to be looked at again by the developers. People should not have to pay an extra 9.99 a month to enjoy a job.

[Dervy]

@Dervy

I just realized that I had 2s cast time for all Ninjutsu on the spread sheet.

Murdras are .5s cast each, so this would be accurate to include a .5s delay with 3 murdra ninjutsu, but Shuriken would be 1 and Ration 1.5. Did you account for that error?

The model doesn't draw data from that tab anyway, so it's fine

I've also hard coded GDC delays into the Sim, so it will add +0.5 or +1s GDC clipping every 20 seconds (I can manually change the clipping duration) depending on how long the modelled rotation I used goes for. It's still not perfect, but it'll do for now until I understand how EMX modelled the GDC clipping and animation delays with the Bards BL procs.

Running it with a hard coded GDC clip of 0.75s every 20s lowers the SS weight to 0.207, setting it at 1s changes the SS weight to 0.204.

I don't know if I should try work on it like this, or literally add each mudra's GDC clip manually and then deduct it from the GDC, then add the clipping values to the total elapsed time of the rotation. It will won't consider latency though and that's honestly the hardest part to implement.

People have suggested that I should give different weights for the Ninja depending on peoples latency to the DataCenter, or I could just add 100ms instead, which could average out for NA, EU and AU players.

[treuhavik]

I don't know if I should try work on it like this, or literally add each mudra's GDC clip manually and then deduct it from the GDC, then add the clipping values to the total elapsed time of the rotation. It will won't consider latency though and that's honestly the hardest part to implement.

People have suggested that I should give different weights for the Ninja depending on peoples latency to the DataCenter, or I could just add 100ms instead, which could average out for NA, EU and AU players.

Save yourself the extra work and average the weighting, I'd say. It's not like it would be a dramatic difference anyway. Besides, even those that "never" have murdra lag will experience varying ninjutsu cast-times.

Instead of adding separate values for animation, can you simplify it by just setting the cast times as the sum of time spent, like the ones posted above? Also, it's been tested to death, Fuma is our only cast that doesn't clip the GCD. So, we'll want to sub that in for ALL Rations in the sim's rotation, if you haven't already.