Finally got through T5. Time to learn T6?

[Barboron]

The Duty Finder is meant for both new and experienced players.
If you are offended by helping new players learn content in a duty finder, I would recommend you avoid it in the future and stick to making pre-made or simply leave the group.

I guess you kind of cherry picked some of what I said. As I actually said :

It's not that someone is new to the fight but rather hasn't put the effort in.

I don't care if I see the 100 Soldiery bonus when starting a duty, I trust a new player who knows the fight as much as most "experienced" players.

However, if the DF is there for learning purposes, how can new players be expected to clear content? If a new player is unable to find a group, which they obviously are since they use the DF, how can they clear the likes of T5, only an example, in the DF if it is for learning players only? A player who has learned the first and second, maybe even third, phases may continually end up getting players learning the first phase. See what's happening here? A player who is there to learn is preventing another player from learning.

Teaching people or learning is all well and good but teaching people who don't even make a small look ahead, gets difficult considering the time restraint and the other players in the duty. It's not all about the new player. Unfortunately, majority rules, and the people learning tend to be of the few.

The reason you don't see learning parties often in the PF, although I do still see them, is because they aren't willing to find people. So, instead, stick 7 other random players with the task via the DF to teach them.

If you are new to a fight and get away without having looked at it, fair play to you. I won't condemn anyone. I would just rather, that when I enter the DF, that people put in that bit of effort so should I try and teach them, it makes it easier for me. So when I name a mechanic, they aren't confused. I will assist people who put in that effort, but not people who don't.

[Lemuria]

However, if the DF is there for learning purposes, how can new players be expected to clear content? If a new player is unable to find a group, which they obviously are since they use the DF, how can they clear the likes of T5, only an example, in the DF if it is for learning players only? A player who has learned the first and second, maybe even third, phases may continually end up getting players learning the first phase. See what's happening here? A player who is there to learn is preventing another player from learning.

If you have to use circular logic in an argument, you've already lost.

This really isn't rocket science here. You can watch every video under the sun, but the only way to learn is to experience. The easiest way to do this is the Duty Finder. It doesn't matter whether you agree or not, it's the cold, hard truth. I click a check box, hit a button. Done. I'm in the queue for the next fight. No running around trying to find like-minded players who want to learn or are willing to help others learn (hint, those are REALLY hard to find these days).

So, you're going to be teamed up with inexperienced players. You're going to have to expect not everyone fully understands the fight. Even if they've watched a Youtube video you're going to find players who missed key mechanics doing so. And lastly, you're going to find it more difficult. The chances of you actually being matched with a team thats fully competent are far slimmer than the chances of being mixed with new players.

So, you can either be toxic and deny these people the chance to learn by vote kicking even though you KNEW in advance what to expect, or you can work WITH these players so the next time they show up in the Duty Finder they're a little bit wiser and a lot more beneficial to the team. With posts like these ones in this forum, it's no wonder new players consider our community to be less than welcoming.

[Barboron]

You can watch every video under the sun, but the only way to learn is to experience.

Do I have to reiterate my point here? Or do people have difficult reading? If someone watches a video, reads a guide, or does something in an attempt to prepare themselves by knowing the fight, by all means if I end up with them in the DF I have no issue assisting them.

The easiest way to do this is the Duty Finder. It doesn't matter whether you agree or not, it's the cold, hard truth. I click a check box, hit a button. Done. I'm in the queue for the next fight. No running around trying to find like-minded players who want to learn or are willing to help others learn (hint, those are REALLY hard to find these days).

Easiest, but laziest way. That's why people haven't cleared content. See it time and time again on the forums that people "can't find parties" because they are waiting for someone else to start one.

[Lemuria]

Do I have to reiterate my point here? Or do people have difficult reading? If someone watches a video, reads a guide, or does something in an attempt to prepare themselves by knowing the fight, by all means if I end up with them in the DF I have no issue assisting them.

What's the difference between someone who's not taken the guide on board fully and someone completely new to the fight? Zero, that's what, so your point is moot on that basis alone. The point still stands that they're going to need to learn how to fight, and the best way to get further is to help them, not hinder them by being a bigot.

Easiest, but laziest way. That's why people haven't cleared content. See it time and time again on the forums that people "can't find parties" because they are waiting for someone else to start one.

Only an idiot would ignore the fact that actually getting hands-on experience is going to help you a LOT more than wasting hours trying to find a single group for a handful of runs. Sure, you may not WIN by running the Duty Finder, but you get experience and you can get a lot of it quickly. It's far from lazy to want to get the experience to get better, and thankfully not everyone in DF is like you and may even be willing to lend a few tips from their own experiences.

There are two ways to play. Be a part of the problem, or be part of the solution. You seem to prefer the former

[Barboron]

snip

I don't see what's so difficult for you about what I have said. I never said I expect anyone to full understand a guide and know a fight inside out from it. What I did say is that I would be willing to assist anyone who put in the effort before hand to look up a guide, or even made PF groups to go in.

Picture this scenario (if you can without headache), going into T6 and you get a completely new person. Hasn't stepped foot inside, hasn't looked at a guide, doesn't know a damn thing. So, after having done T6 a number of times in the DF, the obvious method to deal with devour is LoS. You suggest LoS to someone, they won't have a clue until you spend several minutes explaining it. On top of that, they have to adjust to the new marker which they have never seen before. Also have to get the timing down, not get devoured themselves while also not causing others to get devoured. On top of that again there are two tactics, LoS on the MT or group LoS.

Starting to see my point? Time in the DF is limited, having to explain all that for just one mechanic is time consuming. Try explaining honey, the briar, slugs, acid rain, burn method etc. and you get little to no time to actually practice in the DF because chances are, with newer players, someone is going to kill someone and you won't see the end of the fight. I have seen it happen often enough in the DF and I see it in the PF. I see it with people who have a kill too, which is why I pointed out several times that I don't overly preference someone with the kill versus someone who has studied the fight before hand.

[Gardes]

Only an idiot would ignore the fact that actually getting hands-on experience is going to help you a LOT more

I'd agree if you're going into the fight with some idea of what to expect from the fight. If we're to look at another instance where the word 'hands-on experience' is used, you don't send an intern to get some 'hands-on experience' before making them go through some text learning.

is going to help you a LOT more than wasting hours trying to find a single group for a handful of runs. Sure, you may not WIN by running the Duty Finder,

So it's not okay for 1 player to have to wait/look for 7 other consenting players but it's okay to get 7 random players that may have a different goal and potentially waste their time? Because they're strangers? Or is it because that 1 player just doesn't care?

There are two ways to play. Be a part of the problem, or be part of the solution. You seem to prefer the former

And there are 2 sides. Both have to compromise. If the experienced players have to accommodate for the new player who's trying to do old content, he should at least read up on the fight. If I were to suddenly stop playing before ever seeing t13 and I came back to my fc having t13 on farm and they offered to help me get past it, I would go read up on the fight first. I wouldn't look at a gift horse in the mouth and ask them to flail about in t13 just because I wanted to, even if they are my good game friends, unless they specifically wanted me to.

Yes, reading on it is not the same as seeing the fight first hand but I'll be able to put two and two together as soon as I see them instead of having to scramble or just stand in one spot to look at the animations, effects, my status, party status, debuff icons, buff icons, to understand what's going to happen as the mechanics happen.

[Sapphic]

Yes, reading on it is not the same as seeing the fight first hand but I'll be able to put two and two together as soon as I see them instead of having to scramble or just stand in one spot to look at the animations, effects, my status, party status, debuff icons, buff icons, to understand what's going to happen as the mechanics happen.

But you both on the same page, you name a mechanic they know what it is. Instead of "durrrr whats that?"

See so many go into DF and first thing they say is "what do I do?" instead of taking a few minutes to read up in a more detailed written way something they are expecting others to type up for them. From the posts, pretty much demanding that others cater to them not having to make any effort to prepare for said content. Isn't that the definition of self entitlement?

Instead of going into DF expecting everyone else to cater to one, meet em half way and do some preparation before joining, As it is MUCH easier and less time consuming to help someone who is on the same page/speaking the same language in regards to mechanics and terminology.

I've also seen it the other way as well, where, with fights with different strats for mechanics, the tank, instead of checking everyone is using the same strat, says nothing and just initiates the fight then gets mad when half the party does one thing and the other half another XD

[LineageRazor]

See so many go into DF and first thing they say is "what do I do?" instead of taking a few minutes to read up in a more detailed written way something they are expecting others to type up for them.

Just be aware that, as hard as it might be for forum-readers like us to imagine, there ARE plenty of folks in-game who simply have no idea that these resources exist. Not every FFXIV player reads the forums, or even knows that there are videos you can watch online. Not everyone that plays an MMO is also Internet-savvy. A lot of folks who come into an instance and ask, "What do I do?" either honestly don't understand that there's even another way - or believes that getting the skinny straight from other players is the best way to learn.

There's a case for that, given that a lot of internet resources have conflicting and alternate strategies - it's good to know which strategy is currently "in", and that your party will be doing. For example, I first defeated Ifrit Ex long after it was worthwhile to have him on "farm" mode. The guide I'd read suggested that the tanks both stand at the edge of the arena, with enough gap between them that Ifrit won't hit the off-tank with Incinerate. The tanks pretty much never move except to reposition for the next set of Radiant Plumes; Vulcan Burst doesn't knock them back because they're already at the edge of the arena, and when swapping hate Ifrit simply turns to face the other tank, rather than either tank having to move (and potentially getting both tanks hosed down with Incinerate while they reposition).

This was the method that was used on my first win, and it works great. However, no tank I've encountered since uses that strategy. They all stand with Ifrit pointed straight outwards, and expect the off-tank to move to Ifrit's side, and run in when the swap occurs. It works, certainly, but is much messier - and, since I wasn't expecting it, I wound up getting hit by every Incinerate until I figured out what was going on.

So, there's value to be had in asking the group with for advice if you're inexperienced, even if you've done research ahead of time. I don't mean to imply from this that you SHOULDN'T use guides - just that it never hurts to confirm what you've read with the players you're with when trying out new content.

[Aldora]

So, you're going to be teamed up with inexperienced players. You're going to have to expect not everyone fully understands the fight. Even if they've watched a Youtube video you're going to find players who missed key mechanics doing so. And lastly, you're going to find it more difficult. The chances of you actually being matched with a team thats fully competent are far slimmer than the chances of being mixed with new players.

So, you can either be toxic and deny these people the chance to learn by vote kicking even though you KNEW in advance what to expect, or you can work WITH these players so the next time they show up in the Duty Finder they're a little bit wiser and a lot more beneficial to the team.

Thank you. Those are my thoughts exactly, but you used a better way to describe them.

I also like to add that the same applies for speed running too. Not every player is speed run material or is well versed in speed running tactics. I’ve been working on my new Zodiac questline which requires me to run the old dungeons for certain drops. I tend to go in as a healer, rather than a Tank since i personally don’t want to speed run (especially as a tank) but i can manage as a healer. So far, 95% of the dungeon runs i did (didn’t matter which dungeon it was) people wanted to speed run it (without consulting with the rest if they are up for it).

The thing is, like Lemuria said earlier, you can’t expect everyone to be on the same level as you in the DF. Especially when it comes to the lower level dungeons. I still find a lot of people in there who are leveling their class. There are plenty of people who are quite experienced with the content, but you’ll never know for sure if you simply queue up for a Dungeon/Raid/Trial in the DF without a pre-made party.

So, @OP, it’s never too late to learn a new Turn, Trial or Dungeon. Although, the safest way to form a learning party is through the PF, since you can explicitly say that you will queue up for Turn 6 as a learning party (but that doesn’t mean you can’t use the DF for that). A lot of experienced people would most likely join you, since they will be getting the Bonus Tomes from it, but you will also get the chance to meet people who are in the same boat as you.

Who knows, you might even find enough people to form a Static with for content like this. (^_^ )

So i’d like to say <Good Luck!> in T6, and i hope you will clear it soon! (^_^ )-b