Yoshida did not make this game pay-to-win. The players did. *NOT a cash shop thread*

[AdamFyi]

Snip.

What? Read my post again. That was an example. I never stated that anything was to be made free. I was questioning what could be considered pay-to-win.

If you can't enjoy the game without needing to rely, complain, or acknowledge the existence of the Cash Shop, then what's the point of playing?

[Atomnium]

Is it just me or did all the NyarukoW offensive replies in this thread got totally deleted?
So... It mean one additional thing!!!!!!!
If it's the case, I don't know who you are kind Moderator but I wish you a very merry Christmas and an incredible happy new year to you (and it is coming from the bottom of my heart, thanks <3).

Back on the thread, OP you should not confuse yourself and mix things, no offence, being able to sell and trade the wedding rings formula for gils was an obvious mistake in the cash-shop, blaming the mercenary community to be the "original bad seedling" of the problem is a false and dangerous theory.
Also,

Aren't such groups only really around because the developers insisted on a simplistic system for just about everything?

Since beta I've seen hundreds of threads asking for more complexity in class and fight mechanics, and they always get met with the same "That would be too complex for players" style of response. Honestly, when you make a game with very little complexity, it's just begging for people to be carried through it. I think the root of the problem is the developers "Let everyone reach max level really easily" mentality. When you can reach Coil by doing nothing but spamming AoE in FATEs of course you're going to have people who can barely function in endgame content and then look to buy wins...

^ This is probably one of my favourite quote in this forum, if the game was more harsh in the "learning process" for new players, we wouldn't have such huge mercenary community in game

[HeroSamson]

snip

its true.

Mercenary's exist in every single MMO game.

Also if people helped for free its still the same thing with or without Gil payment.

[Sapphic]

It is absolutely done in WoW.

I said WoW Vanilla, and no, never saw content sellers during that time whatsoever, what came after, can't say, wasn't playing so my statement is still true for that time.

Content is designed so that average players who put time into it and practice with a group will be able to clear it even if they make mistakes. What you propose here is to significantly raise the bar required to clear. It also means you can't help your friends if they are bad.

Exactly, not designed for bad players to pay others to carry them through it, glad we agree there. Now put it into practice

[silentwindfr]

the trouble is not the fact that fight are too hard or stuff like this, more than if you can't gather a group of people that are ready to dedicate themself to that only, you will never do it, even if you have the skill and knowledge... why this? because most of the group that are doing T10-13 or even T6-9, don't want to do the previous one. leading to the fact that new player (that can have the capacity to do more) are stuck to some point and lead them to either pay to win mercenary or simply drop of the game and search another place where they can find challenge and play with people.

i will be blunt it's too part fault of how the content was designed, the full scripted and OS mechanic is nice but over used it lead to group that will refuse to have one error made by member of the group or kick... the famous fail = kick and stuff like this. it did developpe extremely toxic community.
then part is fault of the community and part fault of the content and the form it have.

another point interesting, why this situation never really happend in WoW or other game before, mostly because they never asked to finish the previous raid, if someone join at the 2.4 he will need to complet T5 and T9 for be able to do the new content... that a major flaws in the design.

[Razzle]

Lol it's pretty funny that people believe anything that's being said. I'm willing to bet $E knew from the start that it was going to be sold by players for in game money. In fact I'm pretty sure they will take their time with "fixing" this.

The moment the popular time of this feature has passed, is the moment they will suddenly find the "fix" for it. lol

And blaming the players for it is a joke.

Bare in mind that anything $E says probably goes through a process of some sort of the marketing team. At least that's how the company I work at works. I can't just come up with an answer and publish it to customers without analyzing the consequences. So might as well change a few words here and there, to make customers hear what they want to hear ( ' x '

[Korilynn]

Aren't such groups only really around because the developers insisted on a simplistic system for just about everything?

Since beta I've seen hundreds of threads asking for more complexity in class and fight mechanics, and they always get met with the same "That would be too complex for players" style of response. Honestly, when you make a game with very little complexity, it's just begging for people to be carried through it. I think the root of the problem is the developers "Let everyone reach max level really easily" mentality. When you can reach Coil by doing nothing but spamming AoE in FATEs of course you're going to have people who can barely function in endgame content and then look to buy wins...

The mentality of make things harder and require an awesome static didn't work to well for Wildstar.

Yes, there is a playerbase for that, it's just not that big.

[FateAudax]

What? Read my post again. That was an example. I never stated that anything was to be made free. I was questioning what could be considered pay-to-win.

I'm sincerely sorry if I misinterpreted your post, but believe me when I tell you it's hard to differentiate real question and fact twisting questions.

[Nalien]

The mentality of make things harder and require an awesome static didn't work to well for Wildstar.

That's only half the solution. The main issue is the way mechanics are just suddenly dropped on you. They did an OK job with Primals, since the story mode ones introduce the mechanics while the hard/extreme ones just ramp up the difficulty and perhaps add a couple new mechanics, but Crystal Tower and Coil?

Guildhests would have been a great way to teach players mechanics, but they were completely optional and only really worth doing the once. They'd have been a great educational tool if SE actually made them relevant, instead most teach you nothing (or instead tell you to do something stupid like focus on adds when the boss goes down in seconds) and all endgame mechanics end up being taught to new players by old players, which a lot of people just don't have the patience for.

By far the main issue is that the game expects nothing of you until Coil. The fact that all content is simplistic and thus easy to carry people through doesn't help. The game should have steadily taught players how to handle basic mechanics as you level, instead it basically teaches you nothing 1-50 and then ramps up the difficulty for endgame. You go from simply dodging things and killing adds, to mechanics like Allagan Rot which get completely ignored because not a damn thing in the game prepared players for it. A Guildhest could so easily have introduced a mechanic similar to Allagan Rot, make it a requirement (or at least worth doing frequently) and people wouldn't have gotten to Turn 2 and failed time after time to a completely alien mechanic. Christ, Silencing High Voltage was a completely new mechanic to 99% of the games population in 2.0, it was pathetic...

This games biggest failing is the dichotomy of its difficulty. You either have super casual content where you can almost ignore mechanics and still power through, or you have instant KO mechanics. It simply isn't a good system, it means your casual players can have almost no idea what they're doing, while your hardcores have it completely sorted. Don't treat casuals like children and gradually expect more from them as they level (almost all "difficult" leveling content currently can be ignored for FATEs), then when they get to endgame they might actually have a clue what is going on and be able to adapt, or have others explain things simply ("It's like X" rather than having to explain the entire thing like you currently have to). For the most part mechanics aren't even hard in this game, it's just an utter lack of practice, due to an utter lack of any content requiring practice before Coil. Silencing High Voltage is in no way hard, but when people are getting to Coil for the first time and have not once had to Silence anything, let alone coordinate with another player, that is an issue.

[Teryaani]

Let's recap your argument,

You claim that the stuff in the cash shop is "OK" because it's "fluff personal objectives". I argued that everything in this game is technically "fluff personal objectives" and gave an example of a Shiva weapon, which you don't really need to have, and asked if it's OK for that to be in the cash shop.

You then went off on a tangent asking rhetorical questions such as "Are they selling weapons now?" which is beside the point. ("uncanny interest to derail topics" heh. Talk about pot calling kettle black. )

You have yet to directly answer my question, "Is it acceptable to sell an iLv 115 Shiva weapon on the cash shop?".

By simple logical extrapolation of your past lines of argument, the answer is "yes" - it is after all a "fluff personal objective". But since you claim otherwise, do tell, "Why not?". It is after all "optional fluff".

So lets stop beating around the bush. Is it or is it not OK to sell an iLV 115 Shiva weapon on the cash shop? Yes or no? If no, why not?

Let's put this to rest (Ha! if only). You want vanity to be play to win, it's not.

"I would consider in terms of items, optional things that would change the aesthetics like your skin color or your race but not your stats. If it’s like the Ring of Yoshida, it’s cool but it can cross the line and help you clear end game content and help you beat certain monsters. That has the risk of people calling the game pay-to-win. That’s not something I want to do." - Naoki Yoshida

That is play to win, straight from the producer's own mouth (gamerevolution interview). Mounts and minions and glamours aren't giving you better stats.

So stop with this "well it's my objective so that's pay to win". Your objective may be important, but it's not the objective the game designers count as "winning". The Shiva weapon gives improved stats for some. No cash shop for that. A minion or mount doesn't.