Yoshida did not make this game pay-to-win. The players did. *NOT a cash shop thread*

[FateAudax]

This thread and it's replies clearly shows that players are capable of twisting facts into the way they want it to be interpreted.

OP: "Pay gils to win is also considered pay-2-win".

Multiple replies:
- "It's less 'pay to win' and more 'pay to catch up so you can go into a static". (sorry, but your words is suitable for my example).
- Mercing content has been done in every MMO since the dawn of... whenever the first MMO was.
- I don't think it is necessarily unfair or cheating, even, to have people pay hard-earned gil for carries.

Right, so this has been around since start of MMO and it's not unfair or cheating but look!! The cash-shop which we accepted and agreed in the ToS is NOT OKAY and it clearly gives an UNFAIR advantage to rich players. *Proceeds to make multiple threads whining and complaining about it*.

I lol-ed.

[Sapphic]

Mercing content has been done in every MMO since the dawn of... whenever the first MMO was.

Well explain then how I have never seen it before FFXIV.

I've been MMOing since EQ1 launch, and ive never seen run sellers before this. EQ1 and 2, UO online, DaoC, WoW vanilla (quit after first xpac), Lotro, AoC just to name a few.

Comparing crafted items to clearing content is two totally different things and you should feel bad trying to compare and justify it with it. Crafted gear is designed in a way to be crafed and sold, why it will never be the highest tier. Dropped gear is designed to be won from defeating the content.

1) It gives a false metric to SE on the number of players able to clear it. If it falls into their expected paramaters of clearing, then it affects content design.
2) It puts players who are unprepared for harder content into the pool of those who are causing problems. What you learn by clearing content legit prepares you for higher tier content due to the practice and experience.
3) Why do the content when you don't want to do the content? Being carried is not doing the content.

SE should either design content so it is impossible to carry a dead weight, or make an easy mode without loot so those who fail at the content can still do it while killing off any reasons or ability to content sell, before you say, yes, Ive been offered spots in sell teams, I told em to go away (not as politely as that tho).

Never been part of a sell team and still have millions of gil sitting on retainers doing nothing.

[Bishop81]

Thread title me laugh and reminded me of "guns don't kill people, rappers do" xd

I think it's a bit suspicious that a pretty expensive relic upgrade ( for anyone not actively making gil ) comes right at the same time as a legit irl--->gil converter gets implemented. I call BS on what was intended too btw....

Well, grats to SE I suppose.

All the "trust" they have rebuild with 2.0, a good part of it has gone down the drain. LOL

This thread and it's replies clearly shows that players are capable of twisting facts into the way they want it to be interpreted.

OP: "Pay gils to win is also considered pay-2-win".

Multiple replies:
- "It's less 'pay to win' and more 'pay to catch up so you can go into a static". (sorry, but your words is suitable for my example).
- Mercing content has been done in every MMO since the dawn of... whenever the first MMO was.
- I don't think it is necessarily unfair or cheating, even, to have people pay hard-earned gil for carries.

Right, so this has been around since start of MMO and it's not unfair or cheating but look!! The cash-shop which we accepted and agreed in the ToS is NOT OKAY and it clearly gives an UNFAIR advantage to rich players. *Proceeds to make multiple threads whining and complaining about it*.

I lol-ed.

Just going to quote this,

The most important concept in this paper is that it's not just how you sell your product, but what part of your product you sell. A great part of the attraction of virtual worlds is that participants see them as a Grand Meritocracy, as opposed to the real world, which can often seem arbitrary and unfair. As Jane McGonigal points out, there is no unemployment in virtual space. Everyone has opportunities. Absolute care must be taken in the design of your virtual world to maintain this perception -- whether you consider it real or illusion is irrelevant.

Selling the game objectives in your world makes your game unfair and just reminds your customers of the inequities of the world they are trying to escape from. They literally won't buy this. Sell them opportunity, in the form of content, and they will buy up that opportunity with an enthusiasm that will shock you.

- http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/17...on_.php?page=4

[Ellatrix]

Well explain then how I have never seen it before FFXIV.

I've been MMOing since EQ1 launch, and ive never seen run sellers before this. EQ1 and 2, UO online, DaoC, WoW vanilla (quit after first xpac), Lotro, AoC just to name a few.

It is absolutely done in WoW.

So tell me then. When you have a serious plumbing issue, do you do it yourself or call someone who knows what they are doing? It's the same thing.

SE should either design content so it is impossible to carry a dead weight

Content is designed so that average players who put time into it and practice with a group will be able to clear it even if they make mistakes. What you propose here is to significantly raise the bar required to clear. It also means you can't help your friends if they are bad.

[polyhedral]

It's done in WoW, so it's good for this MMO.

I think most people that played 1.0, did not care for another WoW clone, or it's community if I remember reading the forums correctly.

But whatever floats your gil boats. I actually earn mine in game, but whatever like I said.

[LunaHoshino]

SE should either design content so it is impossible to carry a dead weight

Are you kidding me? It's already hard enough to find competent parties for endgame content. Why on earth would you want to make that WORSE?

[FateAudax]

Just going to quote this,

Except that there aren't any game objectives being sold in the cash-shop. Nice try.

[Bishop81]

Except that there aren't any game objectives being sold in the cash-shop. Nice try.

Lets see,

Minions : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Mounts : Earnable in game, by clearing Primal EX, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Dyes : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, crafting your own, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.

[Staris]

I mean its pay to win, but not for the reasons this guy says.
Penta melded IVs in left side 110 gear helped people finish first this tier. This would cost tens - hundreds of millions (for a full group) of gil to pull off.
While It is likely none of the players directly bought gil, It would be a safe bet people who bought crafts/gathers/ and whom they sold runs to did.
In the future these same/new groups will have made gil directly or indirectly off the people selling bracelets.

Really this could be avoided by not adding competitive meld-able / or gil buy able gear for progression content.

[FateAudax]

Lets see,

Minions : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Mounts : Earnable in game, by clearing Primal EX, completing quests, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.
Dyes : Earnable in game, by buying them with gil, crafting your own, grinding rep. Sold in cash shop.

Pretty sure that's personal objective, also pretty sure it is not Pay-2-Win. Like in many other threads, it has been stated it's just extra fluff/optional vanities. People need to stop making a mountain out of a molehill.