Real Money to Get In-Game Currency: Eternal Bond Edition

[tocsin]

Yes

Again, it does not have to be game breaking to be P2W.

if it isn't game breaking, its P2P, Pay to Progress, not P2W. P2W requires winning, which means breaking the game.

We proved a few pages ago that there is no conceivable way for gil alone to break the game or win the game, especially in such small amounts as they are selling for, so these bracelets alone are not P2W.

Next argument!

I'm sorry to be attempting to shut down this line of though, but we have been over it like 40 times already, and I want to see something new come out of my clicking on the thread sub.

[Magis]

if it isn't game breaking, its P2P, Pay to Progress, not P2W. P2W requires winning, which means breaking the game.

You have received an advantage, you have skipped the time investment compared to other players. You can get the best gear, both in combat and crafting classes with melded gear. You can skip large portions of the relic grind by just purchasing the materia vs grinding it. As well, you beat out other players in buying things like housing, materials, minions, etc without having to actually do anything besides punch in your credit card. You are literally paying to advance yourself in FFXIV. While you can't "win" in an MMO since there is no end, you are winning at the main point of the game which is advancement. Especially when it comes to things that are in directed competition with other players, IE the market. Cool, you can now buy the best house in the district, while those guys grinding and farming to get the money get screwed over. But it's not p2w guys.

This doesn't even cover the fact that this is being done while everyone pays a subscription fee. P2W wouldn't be as much as a problem if we weren't already paying a sub on top of things.

It's funny how those goal posts keep moving. Everyone was saying "oh it won't be P2W", and now it's "p2w is actually good guys".

[FateAudax]

without having to actually do anything besides punch in your credit card.

How often does these bands gets purchased till it reaches a point where you get gils the instant you punch in your credit card? Exaggeration much? Even before Eternal Bond came along, there are already a group of players who have the added advantage. They are able to afford huge housing and pentamelded crafted gears. They are called legacy players.

SE already said the bands are tradable as a mean for a partner to gift it to their other partner. The players are the ones who are to be blamed. The players who sells the band and the players buying the band.

This doesn't even cover the fact that this is being done while everyone pays a subscription fee.

Again, subscription do not entitle you to everything.

[Magis]

How often does these bands gets purchased till it reaches a point where you get gils the instant you punch in your credit card? Even before Eternal Bond came along, there are already a group of players who have the added advantage. They are able to afford huge housing and pentamelded crafted gears. They are called legacy players.

SE already said the bands are tradable as a mean for a partner to gift it to their other partner. The players are the ones who are to be blamed. The players who sells the band and the players buying the band.

Legacy players were segregated from others, and play on legacy servers which have their economies scaled differently due to the amount of gil in the system, so I dunno how that has to do with anything. A legacy server house will cost more than a non-legacy server house. As well, they achieved that wealth by playing the game, not trying to skip it through external means, which is the topic at hand. You are trying to deflect the argument here, you are saying that SE endorsed RMT isn't P2W and doesn't give the player an advantage and now are talking about non-cash shop stuff which SE had taken steps (and did a pretty good job) to avoid giving advantages to anyone.

Again, subscription do not entitle you to everything.

Sure, and SE can delete all our characters cause they feel like it. That's doesn't make it any less terrible. You might love to spend money to get SE to enabled a flag in your character's database entry, and then pay a monthly fee to see that virtual item or what have you, but others think it's shady as hell.

[FateAudax]

....you are saying that SE endorsed RMT isn't P2W

There isn't an argument to begin with nor even a debate. Anti cash-shop players had their minds set on the false fact that SE endorses RMT for P2W (since I am arguing that SE do not condone RMT item being traded for gils). These people aren't pointing their pitchforks at players who abuses this feature but instead are pointing their pitchforks at SE, why?

My reasoning is: This Eternal Bond for gils isn't Pay-2-Win. What they are doing here is piggybacking on the latest issue which is players selling bands for gils (similar to player selling carries for gils, which both gives advantage to the seller in terms of gils) in hopes to exaggerate the issue (calling it OMG SE endorsing Pay-2-Win) to call for an abolishment of cash shop. However, ultimately all I can read from their posts is "I want the cash shop items for free because I paid for subscription". Basically, entitlement.

[TurnBased]

Personally, I'm starting to accept the cash shop as a necessary evil. It just makes an otherwise perfect game flawed. But the tradeable bracelets as the devs have acknowledged urgently need to be patched. Selling carries is ok as all transactions are done in-game.

[FateAudax]

Personally, I'm starting to accept the cash shop as a necessary evil. It just makes an otherwise perfect game flawed. But the tradeable bracelets as the devs have acknowledged urgently need to be patched. Selling carries is ok as all transactions are done in-game.

Yes, I do agree with you that SE needs to patch the tradable bracelet. I feel sorry for people who might sincerely want to gift it to their partners but this bracelet topic is getting out of hand. Exaggerated posts of SE endorsing Pay-2-Win are a good example. Pitchforks should be pointed to the players selling and buying them.

[Nashred]

Personally, I'm starting to accept the cash shop as a necessary evil. It just makes an otherwise perfect game flawed. But the tradeable bracelets as the devs have acknowledged urgently need to be patched. Selling carries is ok as all transactions are done in-game.

Well that's the whole thing.. The cash shop has now cast a dark cloud over the game.. Now everything that comes out people are going to wonder if it is going in the cash shop.. Look at the missing Christmas tree for the starlight celebration and a whole thread on if it is going in the cash shop since it is missing. It has split the user base and created so much negativity it is going to scare new players from joining.

[Magis]

This is worth the extra post. Upvote this, because this is in fact fun.

So, with that, and look upwards for my responses please, let me pose a question. for the amount of money they would have to pay for this advantage (assuming 1 mil or less for the bracelets), and assuming this goes towards keeping ffxiv alive, which was mentioned by Yoshi during the EU Fanfest, is the advantage really worth it? if someone pays for 500 mil (100 mil for each set of win gear plus 100 mil for materia plus 100 mil for housing, materials, minions, and such) to "win" all these things (keep in mind, that is Ten Thousand Dollars USD (or, subs for a year for 84 people)), are they worth enough to the continued running of the game that they would deserve it?
Also, you cannot use the answer "on principal", or "the morals of it". An MMO is a business, morals and principals have no dominion here.

Your statement of "keeping FFXIV alive" is kinda false since Yoshi himself early on said that 500k users is what was needed to keep the game going and developing. At this point they have 2mil+ players, so I doubt there is an issue of "keeping the game alive". Money thrown into here is to pay the shareholders, which has no bearing on us the players. I was throwing examples at how players get an advantage, I didn't say they'd purchase every single one of the above. You can fully meld a gathering or craft gear piece on my server for about 1.2-2million gil which is what, $20? $40?. BTW, now that money is thrown around like nothing (not just by a single player, but anyone who joins in on this), the economy becomes inflated as others farm more cash to afford the higher prices, injecting even more money into the economy. Now you gotta do RMT to afford anything in the economy causing a feedback loop. This is the same principle why FFXI had such a wrecked economy, except in that case it was gil sellers doing the farming rather than the players.

Morals has everything to do with it, if you keep pushing... people will leave. It's not going to be one big thing that causes the mass exodus (thought it has happened like with Star Wars Galaxies), it will be a slow build up of crap till a straw breaks the camel's back. After watching the forums for the last year and a bit, I've seen many people leave (that I'd see often post or even argue with), usually due to a culmination of problems, not "just one thing".

There isn't an argument to begin with nor even a debate. Anti cash-shop players had their minds set on the false fact that SE endorses RMT for P2W (since I am arguing that SE do not condone RMT item being traded for gils). These people aren't pointing their pitchforks at players who abuses this feature but instead are pointing their pitchforks at SE, why?

My reasoning is: This Eternal Bond for gils isn't Pay-2-Win. What they are doing here is piggybacking on the latest issue which is players selling bands for gils (similar to player selling carries for gils, which both gives advantage to the seller in terms of gils) in hopes to exaggerate the issue (calling it OMG SE endorsing Pay-2-Win) to call for an abolishment of cash shop. However, ultimately all I can read from their posts is "I want the cash shop items for free because I paid for subscription". Basically, entitlement.

Well, you are changing your argument here. I was arguing with you on the fact you said:

Yes, so what's the concern then? What advantage does the seller have? More gils than you?

Which with Tocsin at least we agreed yes, it does give you an advantage in many different ways (though I disagree on if it's a good thing). So if you want to talk about whether the introduction of SE allowed (I guess endorsed was too strong allowed) RMT was on purpose or not, sure we can talk about that. I'd say that if it was so strongly opposed, then we wouldn't get a weak response from a CM going "don't do it, but we won't really do anything if you do" when obviously players are going to take advantage of it anyway. Reap the benefits while pretending to be against it. It's good that players argue NOW and avoid this being a thing in the future, rather than it being introduced and stuck in the game forever.

Now to your second part, you go back to the argument of "is selling Eternal Bond P2W?". As I showed with my last posts, yes it is P2W, even if SE endorses it or not. It gives advantages to players who sell EB rings vs those who just play within the confines of the game. You are paying to advance your character, which in MMO is the goal (there is no end to win)... thus "winning".

Oh yeah, and your last part about entitlement. What a bastardization of the word. No one is asking for the item to be given to us for free. We want it put into the game as content, and have to work to get it (since we pay a subscription already to fund these endeavors). Heck some people who want this may not even get the item due to RNG or w.e, but at least they got the chance. If you want "entitlement" (not really, but the words is thrown around here like nothing), how about paying pennies to have an item instantly appear in your inventory with no work involved at all. Why even play the game at that point? Just print out some 3d model screenshots of the item lol.

[tocsin]

Snip...

Glad to see you back, Magis. this had become stagnant, which is boring.

first, over a million players? hardly. look at the investor reports. FFXIV has less than 300k active subs, and that is a FACT. I have already proven it 4 times on these forums, so ill just link a thread over.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ousing-and-gil

(off topic:you know you are an insufferable white knight, when you reference other white knight posts that you made in a white knight post lol.)

Secondly, these bracelets are selling at nearly nothing right now, just because there isnt an infinite demand for them. with everyone trying to be their own RMT, bracelets have dropped to the sub-500k range on most servers, which means that if more people want to make meaningful money, the supply of them has to increase, which will drive the cost down even further until they are completely worthless.

If you want "entitlement" (not really, but the words is thrown around here like nothing), how about paying pennies to have an item instantly appear in your inventory with no work involved at all. Why even play the game at that point? Just print out some 3d model screenshots of the item lol

this is something I have been wondering myself. honestly, cheats make me stop playing a game, because there isnt anything to acheive anymore. I have alway felt like RMT for gil would eliminate the fun of the game, and I would leave anyways. so are they really winning, even a little? they just ruined their experience.