We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Sequora]

This point is pretty dated, back to 2.0 where disengagement was a big thing. In the current meta DPS can stay engaged with the boss almost 100% of the time. I think Earthshakers is the only exception this. Even back in 2.0 you stay engaged quite a bit but people didn't bother to figure how to. SMN's still have to turret quite a bit to be even comparable in DPS. I don't like the mobile misconception that is being spread :/

Pretty much this. Anyone who says that SMNs have 100% uptime clearly doesn't have a lot of experience.

[Ryans]

Can I get an actual number to compare? People can say it does 30 dps less than any other DD, but what number are you comparing that 30 less to? Not saying you are lying, I just want tested numbers.

[Xisin]

Pretty much this. Anyone who says that SMNs have 100% uptime clearly doesn't have a lot of experience.

Nope. I played smn quite a bit when 2.2 was relevant content. I can tell you that dropping a gcd on blm is way more punishing than dropping a gcd on smn. This rings especially true if you are forced to move in ice mode on your thunder cast. (long cast time, and punishing because it fucks up your next chain.) IF any spells is dropped during the 50-70% cast time it hurts that much more, because your dps literally drops to 0 for a whopiing 4+ seconds, minus thunder dot active, and well if it is your thunder cast your dps is 0. Smn never runs into that situation unless they die, and then their dots falls off while dead.

Why summoners have heavy uptime:

Pet is always attacking, letting your pet die is on you not the job balance, especially since it can be moved at any time without dps loss
If one gcd is miss its usually a ruin, you can ruin 2 while moving anyway - not a huge deal, if you are missing the 3 dots again not a big deal it doesn’t screw up your dps for the next 5-6 casts as a result. If you miss 3 gcds in row sure… but why are you missing 3 gcds in a row?
Even if all your dots are down your pet is still attacking
Even while you are dead your dots can still be up
During limit break your dots should be up
Fester, your biggest nuke has no cast time
Energy drain has no cast time
Bane has no cast time
Ruin 2 has no cast time
bio 1 has no cast time
Your swiftcast is a thing to use it on cd you’re not a blm that needs to hold every other swiftcast for flare.
SMN IS the 2nd most mobile dps, and are really good at dealing with mechanics, stop downplaying that.

The two jobs should not do equal dps, BLM needs to be higher dps in order to stay viable when compared to summoner.

[pinder2009]

Let SMN cross class thunder again

[Sequora]

Why summoners have heavy uptime:



SMN IS the 2nd most mobile dps, and are really good at dealing with mechanics, stop downplaying that.

Never said that they have less uptime then BLM. Just that they aren't as mobile as people say. You're pet can still attack even if your dots are up? Most of our damage comes from our DoTs. Our pet is 25-30% of our DPS. It's a huge DPS loss if they fall off for any extended period.

[Xisin]

your dots are going to be up 90+% of the time. Should be at least. Bio 1 should never be off.

[Ryans]

Never said that they have less uptime then BLM. Just that they aren't as mobile as people say. You're pet can still attack even if your dots are up? Most of our damage comes from our DoTs. Our pet is 25-30% of our DPS. It's a huge DPS loss if they fall off for any extended period.

30% of your damage that is controlled by a computer and doesn't make mistakes. That is more than melee DD's auto attacks. Having 30% of your damage constantly going is huge.

[Minorinz]

@ ignorant people who think summoner is blessed with complete mobility-

1- being mobile most of the time also means mana getting drained
2- spamming energy drain to get some mana back or using it while moving to cover up dps is just lol
3- more energy drain= less festers
4- if your pet dies for whatever reason it's really a heavy punishment, whether it's a dps loss or mana loss
5- dots are supposed to be refreshed when they r about to fall 4-5 seconds before to ensure a server tick otherwise it's a dps loss because A) mana getting sucked if you refresh earlier B) less time/gcd to spam ruin in C) making sure every other CD aligns with your dot'ing time if you are going to use raging strikes or contagion etc. BUT for the sake for being mobile most summoners refresh them earlier before certain mechanics to be able to move WHICH is a dps loss.
6- swiftcast is nice to have for shadow flare and it's always a dps gain and important for res'ing so during progression on new content or heavy content, you will always have to be on standby to res others IF YOU have the mana for it lol
7- Placing your pet and wasting gcd on sustain it's a dps loss in most scenarios

again summoner is quite mobile yeah sure but it's always a dps loss especially in a long fight. The class is so detailed they even give much F's about auto attack. If you really want summoner to be more mobile give them more mana. I think utilities should be the one most important thing to fix + bonus mana buff, since SMN will catch up on BLM in dps sooner or later after complete optimization in every mechanic. It always takes practice to make perfect and SMN is always the best class for any strat or scenario.

[DarkmoonVael]

30% of your damage that is controlled by a computer and doesn't make mistakes. That is more than melee DD's auto attacks. Having 30% of your damage constantly going is huge.

Where as i agree with you that the pets damage contribution is huge, it is also a liability sometimes. Pets dying decreases your damage by a large amount (yes the counter argument here is keep the pet alive, but this does seperate the excellent summoners from the rest). Also the pet, when controlled by the computer (guessing you are referring to the pet on sic?), makes some very very very bad decisions. Garuda on sic, and your dps will decrease due to the A.I.'s use of contagion being less than optimal. Being able to change the position of the egi via place command during battle is also another slight skill tester of the summoner, as having to change where they are to take account of what phase the fight is in and where aoe's are going to go is sometimes needed.

And for the topic, summoners really seem to be less than optimal in this patch, especially in Final coils. Whereas they bring some utility to the group, and the ability to resurrect to push progression is needed, the tail off in sub-optimal mana management really pushed down the summoners viability. Too much emphasis on spellspeed in the gear is hurting the summoner. Also the uility they do bring to the group is overshadowed by the scholars presence in the group (disclaimer, i raid as scholar, but summoner is by far my favourite dps class, and is the class i always go back to as my second class), and in the raids, it is usually my responsibility to use virus at the right time, raise first etc. some other groups may do this differently, but as far as my raid group is concerned, the summoner is there to raise as a last resort, as their dps is needed more where pushing those phase progressions. Clutch raises are heavenly on summoners, but its not what they should be doing all the time .

All in all, their dps does need a little buffing, as well as getting better mana management for end game raids as they currently stand.

[Xisin]

@ ignorant people who think summoner is blessed with complete mobility-

1- being mobile most of the time also means mana getting drained
2- spamming energy drain to get some mana back or using it while moving to cover up dps is just lol
3- more energy drain= less festers
4- if your pet dies for whatever reason it's really a heavy punishment, whether it's a dps loss or mana loss
5- dots are supposed to be refreshed when they r about to fall 4-5 seconds before to ensure a server tick otherwise it's a dps loss because A) mana getting sucked if you refresh earlier B) less time/gcd to spam ruin in C) making sure every other CD aligns with your dot'ing time if you are going to use raging strikes or contagion etc. BUT for the sake for being mobile most summoners refresh them earlier before certain mechanics to be able to move WHICH is a dps loss.
6- swiftcast is nice to have for shadow flare and it's always a dps gain and important for res'ing so during progression on new content or heavy content, you will always have to be on standby to res others IF YOU have the mana for it lol
7- Placing your pet and wasting gcd on sustain it's a dps loss in most scenarios.

again summoner is quite mobile yeah sure but it's always a dps loss especially in a long fight. The class is so detailed they even give much F's about auto attack. If you really want summoner to be more mobile give them more mana. I think utilities should be the one most important thing to fix + bonus mana buff, since SMN will catch up on BLM in dps sooner or later after complete optimization in every mechanic. It always takes practice to make perfect and SMN is always the best class for any strat or scenario.

oh man, the name calling comes out.

K.

1. the mp cost is there because of the mobility, if you've read the whole thread you'd see I'm for you getting mp cost reduction buffs but not potency buffs
2. Fester can be used on the move just as much as energy drain. Moving or not you'd be using energy drain or fester depending on your mp bar
3. duh.
4. if your pet dies then you messed up... badly. This does not belong in a balancing discussion, being a good summoner means never letting your pet die. a dead pet should never happen.
5. this is entirely on your own management. Plan accordingly and you can get your two spells that actually matter if they get interrupted by just fine. bio 1 should never be off sync
6. i agree it is nice for shadowflare, shadowflare cost a ton of mp too so this is a decision in itself. The res thing works one way or another either argue it matters or argue it doesnt matter, summoners are going back and forth on this.
7. shift +4 = call pet to you shift + 5 place pet. you can move it around easily with these two commands while your casting. If you ever need to sustain in a fight you messed up. placing your pet doesn't mean its permanently rooted to the ground. Keep your pet on obey and not sic. (why are you using sic?)