Dragoon buffs and Ninja nerfs coming Dec 9th in patch 2.45

[SolarMisae]

snip

So you're crying to nerf a class because another class is bad? That isn't how it works, or at least it SHOULDN'T be how it works. You buff the other class to keep up with it. I agree drg should either match or out dps ninja, but at the same time ninjas aren't op right now anyway, just strong. Dragoons are weak, it was my main for a long time so I know it's glaring problems. But I don't call for nerfs to ninja because dragoon is weak. I wanted buffs for dragoon. Dragoon was weak LONG before ninja was a thing, all ninja (and FCoB with all it's spinning bosses and unavoidable magic damage) did was make those weaknesses more glaringly obvious.

That said, DRG, while not as strong as other melee, is HARDLY unusable in FCoB. There are DRGs clearing T13, so while they have to work harder for it, it's not like they're completely unviable right now, just not the strongest. Monk still holds that title.

Don't forget MNK still (if ever unless it's T8) needs TP song too. It's actually not going to change at all from what it currently is.

Have you been into FCoB? There is little to no downtime on those fights, so yes TP song will be needed in more places than just T8. That is part of why the TP nerfs are annoying, because ninja was good at managing it's own TP while being able to give TP to the mnk through goad making it so that bard doesn't have to sing increasing the bard's output. Ninja can't goad themselves so managing their own tp better was fair imo. I don't see why forcing all the classes to bottom out equally and force bard to play more paeon is a good thing at all, seems to me like it hurts the whole party. I don't see the point in Goad anymore if this change makes ninja bottom out the same as mnk because what point is there in me using goad when I'm starved on TP too? Bard will just play paeon and Goad's utility just goes away. I'd rather the bard be able to play foes more often. I hope the tp nerfs don't hurt too bad...the damage I could live with but the tp nerfs are just an awful idea.

[Zelter]

So you're crying to nerf a class because another class is bad?

I'm not crying, I'm stating that as things currently are, NIN is too powerful in comparison to other classes. And it's true.

That said, DRG, while not as strong as other melee, is HARDLY unusable in FCoB. There are DRGs clearing T13, so while they have to work harder for it, it's not like they're completely unviable right now, just not the strongest. Monk still holds that title.

In comparison to both MNK and NIN, DRGs dps is terrible. Looking purely at statistics, there's no reason to have a DRG on the team, as you'd get more DPS out of a NIN/MNK - NIN/NIN - MNK/MNK combination. I was calling them non-viable because statistically speaking they are.

Have you been into FCoB? There is little to no downtime on those fights, so yes TP song will be needed in more places than just T8. ... I don't see why forcing all the classes to bottom out equally and force bard to play more paeon is a good thing at all, seems to me like it hurts the whole party. ... I don't see the point in Goad anymore if this change makes ninja bottom out the same as mnk because what point is there in me using goad when I'm starved on TP too? Bard will just play paeon and Goad's utility just goes away. ... I hope the tp nerfs don't hurt too bad...the damage I could live with but the tp nerfs are just an awful idea.

Nope, not yet. Looking forward to it though. Static is rather casual, going only twice a week for 2 hours. Having fun on T9 currently. So I'm not aware of the punching bags and trials of FCoB. Looking forward to it though. While you're right about goads utility, it still has partial use elsewhere like WAR spamming Overpower in a dungeon, just no practical use in raids, which I understand sucks, but TP song is going to be played regardless if all fights are punching bags, as DRG, MNK and NIN will ALL run out of TP. Hell even BRD has TP issues in punching bag fights. I don't see it affecting group DPS anymore than normal because TP song seems like it's going to be needed regardless. We'll see how the TP nerfs go though, I can't say they're good or bad because I'm not knowledgeable on the TP usage of NIN.

Regardless, DRG really did need this buff. I just hope it's enough to not be overshadowed by NIN and MNK, and becomes an option statistically speaking.

[Ephier]

In comparison to both MNK and NIN, DRGs dps is terrible. Looking purely at statistics, there's no reason to have a DRG on the team, as you'd get more DPS out of a NIN/MNK - NIN/NIN - MNK/MNK combination. I was calling them non-viable because statistically speaking they are.

Obviously you do not understand the meaning of viable. As Solar has stated, there are indeed DRGs clearing t13, therefore they are viable by definition (which I have posted below for your viewing pleasure).

viable
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

[Mister-Wonderful]

Obviously you do not understand the meaning of viable. As Solar has stated, there are indeed DRGs clearing t13, therefore they are viable by definition (which I have posted below for your viewing pleasure).

viable
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

This. Also, played well, DRG dps isn't really that far behind at all.

[Zelter]

Obviously you do not understand the meaning of viable. As Solar has stated, there are indeed DRGs clearing t13, therefore they are viable by definition (which I have posted below for your viewing pleasure).

viable
adjective
capable of working successfully; feasible.

Then I'll reword myself. They're not the most efficient. Point still stands the other two are more efficient.

This. Also, played well, DRG dps isn't really that far behind at all.

It's a minimum of 30 DPS behind. Seeing as BRD is around that behind DRG, yes, it's behind. You also haven't responded as to why I'm misinformed with any evidence.

[Velhart]

Funny how NIN's need a nerf when mudra lag already does that for most people who play it.

[Mantrus]

I main Ninja, and honestly Ninjas needed the nerf. A Ninja's individual damage may have been slightly less than a Monk's, but if you account for Trick Attack and not needing to use Dancing Edge with a WAR using Storm's Eye instead, their damage is another level above Monk.

Let me use hypothetical numbers to make it easier to understand. Let's say that a NIN does 450 DPS and a MNK does 460 DPS; these are pretty reasonable numbers with i115 weapons and i110 gear. Trick Attack is just a pure DPS increase associated with having a NIN, so if your party does 2000 DPS overall (the DPS check for t10), Trick Attack adds 1550 DPS every 60 seconds to everyone except the NIN, effectively making a NIN's DPS contribution become 450+25.8=475.8 DPS. Then not having to apply Dancing Edge is basically free DPS since it's easy to just have a WAR, so that's an extra 10 DPS at least? That'd make a NIN's DPS 485.8 DPS compared to a MNK's 450, so it's around 7.8% more damage than MNK.

I think taking advantage of Trick Attack and Storm's Eye were what Yoshida was saying he did not expect in the Live Letter. He said players came up with a more efficient rotation than their playtests, and considering Ninjas are incredibly straightforward (not necessarily easy) with keeping up debuffs and DoTs while using Huton > Suiton > Raiton, I think the effective complete phase out of Dancing Edge in place of Storm's Eye + Aeolian Edge and maybe coordinating X-Potions with Trick Attack was what he was not expecting. If Yoshida were to follow this line of thinking, Aeolian Edge will be getting a higher TP cost and/or lower potency if not most Ninja actions across the board.

I just hope that in the end, Ninja's overall DPS including Storm's Eye and Trick Attack is still higher than Monk's. Dragon Kick's utility is much stronger than Goad's in my opinion, especially with the TP nerf to Ninjas. Now you can basically skip TP song by using Goad on a Monk and having the Ninja fend for itself, but after the patch even if you Goad the other DPS the Ninja will require TP song so Goad would just be a waste; Goad will only be good for DPS or tanks that die and need a TP boost.

seems like a bandaid fix to me

increasing dot potency while reducing cd on some skills won't offer that much of a dps increase (unless they really overdo it) depending on how much they nerf ninjas, drg and nin might end up being the same effective contributed dps, but nin will still win out because of goad utility, while drg has none realistically.

I think this is an important point. With DRGs having no utility, there are three cases that can happen: 1.) DRGs don't get buffed enough and they're still behind in damage, 2.) DRGs are just as strong as MNK/NIN but the latter are still chosen because they have more utilty, or 3.) DRG have more damage than MNK/NIN and are chosen mostly over MNK/NIN because damage is super important. DRGs need utility to be balanced well and not be binary in result.

Also, DRGs are severely behind MNK/NIN level of DPS, even BLM, and there's no reason to take a DRG over the others. Yes, DRGs are "viable," but it's also viable to do Turn 5 in i55 gear apparently. I don't know why people are still challenging whether they need a buff or not.

[Tribunus]

Let me use hypothetical numbers

Sorry you lost me right here.

[SolarMisae]

TP song seems like it's going to be needed regardless. We'll see how the TP nerfs go though, I can't say they're good or bad because I'm not knowledgeable on the TP usage of NIN.

Not true actually, our bard never plays anything but Foes because my tp management and goad makes it so we all have JUST enough by the time the fight ends. I hope the nerfs don't change the ability to not use paeon. I can completely accept slight damage nerfs actually but making goad all but useless for anyone but like a paladin or in non-raid scenarios is a bad move imo.

Regardless, DRG really did need this buff. I just hope it's enough to not be overshadowed by NIN and MNK, and becomes an option statistically speaking.

While I agree with this, and do think drgs needed love, I don't think they should be nerfing classes because others are weak, you just buff the weak ones.

[hallena]

Funny how NIN's need a nerf when mudra lag already does that for most people who play it.

They said they are fixing the lag.