Dragoon buffs and Ninja nerfs coming Dec 9th in patch 2.45

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

And remember when they nerfed the DPS and utility of BRD at the same time?

The previous Rain of Death utility was too powerful. 10% damage reduction simply broke any intended gear-check points for specific turns. Although admittedly, the current effect on Rain of Death is too useless.
In the end, the "nerf" on bard wasn't as bad as people expected it to be and did also affect Dragoon.

Sure, you can, but you still only have a silence or a stun on that 30 second CD. It's not like changing your poison resets the CD.

Much like every other DPSs - and even tanks to an extend - CC ability.

[Viridiana]

The previous Rain of Death utility was too powerful. 10% damage reduction simply broke any intended gear-check points for specific turns. Although admittedly, the current effect on Rain of Death is too useless.
In the end, the "nerf" on bard wasn't as bad as people expected it to be and did also affect Dragoon.

I agree that RoD probably needed changing, but that it's been left useless. But they also nerfed B4B and IR, which really hampered our damage. To be fair, it also less severely nerfed MNK and DRG, but both of those got to keep their native abilities unchanged and didn't feel it as much. And as you said yourself, BRD damage was low before they nerfed it, meaning they lowered one of the lowest DPS while also hurting their utility.

Much like every other DPSs - and even tanks to an extend - CC ability.

Umm. . .no. MNK has a 40 second stun, a 30 second stun, and a ~6 second AOE silence, though that last one costs them major dps if it's not an AOE situation. DRG has a 20 second stun and a 60 second stun. WAR has a 20 second stun. PLD has a 30 second silence and a GCD ability to stun lock, TP permitting. WHM has a 30 second duration sleep, a knockback+bind, and an AOE stun lock, MP permitting. SCH and SMN have a 5% slow effect. SMN also has a 20 second bind, and a knockback (Garuda) or 40 second stun (Ifrit or Titan). SCH also has a 40 second silence (Selene). BLM has a 30 second duration AOE sleep, 8 second duration PBAOE bind, and 15 second duration AOE bind. BRD has a 40 second recast 10 second duration bind and a 30 second silence. NIN has a 30 second stun or silence (pick one) and a 20 second recast (kinda) 15 second duration bind (Hyoton).

Now, of those, MNK will use the stuns on CD if they can, but their silence is 100 potency lost unless it's AOE. DRG will use both stuns on CD. WAR will use the stun on CD. PLD will use the silence on CD and stun as needed. WHM Fluid Aura is a dps increase against bosses immune to knockback, and Holy spam is sometimes a life saver. SCH and SMN will both Shadow Flare as often as they can unless the SCH needs to overwrite it with Sacred Soil. SMN Tri-disaster is a 20 potency loss per target but has the advantage of not being PBAOE like their only other AOE options are. Garuda knockback is a 10 potency loss, while the stuns are used on CD if you have those pets out. Selene silence can be saved for whenever. I can't really say how much of a potency loss BLM CC is, because I don't really follow BLM much. BRD silence will be used on CD, bind used as needed at minimal dps loss. NIN silence/stun will be used on CD, the bind will be kept on CD unless you somehow anticipate the need for it, but the minimum potency loss for using Hyoton is 220.

I'm not trying to make it sound like NIN has no CC options, but, no, they really aren't comparable to the CC other classes have.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I'm not trying to make it sound like NIN has no CC options, but, no, they really aren't comparable to the CC other classes have.

Well, you mentioned it yourself:

Now, of those, MNK will use the stuns on CD if they can, but their silence is 100 potency lost unless it's AOE. DRG will use both stuns on CD. WAR will use the stun on CD. PLD will use the silence on CD and stun as needed.

Conclusion: CC abilities are rarely kept for it's actual purpose: Crowd Control. So again: It's comparable with other classes.

[Viridiana]

Well, you mentioned it yourself:

Conclusion: CC abilities are rarely kept for it's actual purpose: Crowd Control. So again: It's comparable with other classes.

What? No. The day a NIN can solo-silence T2, or solo-stun Ifrit or Levi's add, or solo-bind feathers on Garuda, then I'll believe that it has comparable CC to other classes.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

What? No. The day a NIN can solo-silence T2, or solo-stun Ifrit or Levi's add, or solo-bind feathers on Garuda, then I'll believe that it has comparable CC to other classes.

Paladins and bards can't solo silence T2, it always happened in a tandem. If monks did it they lose a ton of DPS - Which a Ninja won't lose in similar numbers.
Paladin is the only reliable class to solo stun eruptions in ifrit or levi adds. Meanwhile no one else should be stunning at all. This includes monks with Shoulder Tackle and Steel Peak and Dragoon's Leg Sweep and Spineshatter dive. This means that other two comparable melees lose TWO damage abilities while Ninja only loses one for such occasion. Also: Monks can only use one stun at 10y distance. So much like Arm of the Destroyer, they'll lose DPS if they try to stun it like this.
The more popular meta for Garuda EX is to provoke the spiny plume, rather than to "bind" it. The only one who -could- do this is Bard without damaging and potentially killing the Spiny Plume. But this may cause more harm than good depending on who has the spiny and where it is located.

[Zophar]

Paladin is the only reliable class to solo stun eruptions in ifrit or levi adds. Meanwhile no one else should be stunning at all. This includes monks with Shoulder Tackle and Steel Peak and Dragoon's Leg Sweep and Spineshatter dive. This means that other two comparable melees lose TWO damage abilities while Ninja only loses one for such occasion.

Thank you for actually pointing this out. This is something that almost nobody considers at all. Granted, at this point in the game, there are few scenarios where stun resistance is a concern, but they do exist, and likely will again. And whether or not nin loses any dps at all depends on if they're actually on stun duty at all. If not, nin just changes stances to turn stun into silence, and keeps on trucking. This seems like a minimal boost to dps, but when you add it to the fact that other job's stun moves, suck as spineshatter dive and leg sweep, are lost completely, the gap widens.

[Viridiana]

snip

I never said they wouldn't lose DPS. In fact, it's pretty much assumed that anyone doing CC is going to lose DPS. A MNK solo silencing T2 is losing more than most, but their CC is still unparalleled in that regard. And yes, PLD has an unrivaled stun capability in Ifrit and Leviathan. And no, I was talking about SMN binding all of the feathers in Garuda Hard, which was a common tactic at lower gear levels. Thanks, though, for tacitly admitting that NIN CC is worse than that of the other classes.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I never said they wouldn't lose DPS. In fact, it's pretty much assumed that anyone doing CC is going to lose DPS. A MNK solo silencing T2 is losing more than most, but their CC is still unparalleled in that regard. And yes, PLD has an unrivaled stun capability in Ifrit and Leviathan. And no, I was talking about SMN binding all of the feathers in Garuda Hard, which was a common tactic at lower gear levels. Thanks, though, for tacitly admitting that NIN CC is worse than that of the other classes.

I never said they were worse. They just suffer far less DPS loss compared to other classes - If anything, the loss is nowhere near a monk or dragoon when abilities are to be held back for CC purposes. In fact, they have it far easier compared to other DPS classes. Zophar mentioned it before: Not allowed to stun? Switch poisons! And suddenly you have an extra off CD dps ability while others aren't allowed to use it.

[Giantbane]

Meanwhile no one else should be stunning at all. This includes monks with Shoulder Tackle and Steel Peak and Dragoon's Leg Sweep and Spineshatter dive. This means that other two comparable melees lose TWO damage abilities while Ninja only loses one for such occasion.

The ninja doesn't lose *ANY* damage abilities in such occasions. Ninja can use Kiss of the Viper (instead of Kiss of the Wasp) and Jugulate won't stun, allowing them to use it freely.