[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[Delily]

Yes ... lets apply the new idea in isolation, assuming no changes to the Job's supporting abilities ...

>.>

I have already said, summons should be instant but sap MP as long as they are out and when using the summon's abilities. The SMN's job is manage their mana - and of course they will be given tools to regen it.

So, basically, let's stuff the summoner from FFXI into this game?

[Delily]

Dot Based Jobs are mechanically broken and Underpowered at higher levels and have a low margin of error compared to other classes as well as mediocre damage for a lot of effort that's why they are unpopular. Pet Based Jobs are Over Powered and are easier to use from a mechanical stand point and easier to balance.
SE made the Summoner a DoT Based Job that is easy to play on paper but since DoT Jobs have a low margin of error and are mechanically broken they are hard to play in End Game Encounters. If SE made the Summoner a Pet Based Job it would be easier to use because they would have a high margin of error.

Just. Stop. Posting. DoT based jobs are in no sense mechanically broken. They do require more attention and a different playstyle than other jobs, but to call them broken is just ridiculous.

[Delily]

Look at pets.

Every warlock can summon the 4 basic pets. But how many are actually useful? Blizzard has been trying to make all of them "viable". Tying each to a spec. Untying them from specs, giving each a "role". etc. They tried it all.

In the end it's down to "one pet" per specific situations depending on the state of the game. There is really no choice, it's an illusion.

High resummoning cost = can't switch mid combat = trapped with one pet during combat = player picking the best for their situation

You effectively only have one pet.

The cute part is, you don't have "one pet", you have many and they all have to work with the class's abilities. But close integration with class abilities is almost impossible with so many pets. Frost Mages that have only one pet arguably has the best pet integration.

FFXIV replicated the problem down to the last screw ...

The only time the choice would be an illusion would be if you simply use the same pet over and over, regardless of the situation (similar to garuda right now). You're advocating for changing pets during the fight, yet another hallmark of the FFXI summoner. Just come clean and say "I want the FFXI summoner".

[Akiza]

Just. Stop. Posting. DoT based jobs are in no sense mechanically broken. They do require more attention and a different playstyle than other jobs, but to call them broken is just ridiculous.

That's the problem DoT Based Jobs require more effort to play with little to no reward compared to other damage classes. The Summoner has the same problem that WoW has with the Warlock Elite Warlocks out dps average Warlocks by 80-100 dps because of the low margin of error it's the reason why it's unpopular in End Game Raids and PvE. I myself use my White Mage over the Summoner when it comes to End Game content because it's easier to get content done.

[Bishop81]

The only time the choice would be an illusion would be if you simply use the same pet over and over, regardless of the situation (similar to garuda right now). You're advocating for changing pets during the fight, yet another hallmark of the FFXI summoner. Just come clean and say "I want the FFXI summoner".

Actually, I have never played FFXI ... >.>

I have played FFVI and FFX though. Summons are not "pets", they should not be following you around like a puppy. Summons are powerful creatures you summon at considerable cost to crush your enemies.

As for my commentary on WoW's warlocks, my point is, multiple pets don't work. They don't integrate well with the PC - very hard to design - and frequently end up as some "extra" to the class. The only time I have seen pets work well is if there is only one pet, e.g. Frost Mage.

[Delily]

That's the problem DoT Based Jobs require more effort to play with little to no reward compared to other damage classes. The Summoner has the same problem that WoW has with the Warlock Elite Warlocks out dps average Warlocks by 80-100 dps because of the low margin of error it's the reason why it's unpopular in End Game Raids and PvE. I myself use my White Mage over the Summoner when it comes to End Game content because it's easier to get content done.

For warlocks, your claims can only be applied to one spec: Affliction. Warlocks historically have never been a popular class. The maintenance of DoTs is one issue, but it's not the only issue. That has less to do with the design, and more to do with balance, the bane of all classes. Summoners may require more work, but the reward is that on movement based fights, we have a much easier time than black mages. Your last sentence has no bearing on the conversation, healers have a much faster time that damage dealers.

Actually, I have never played FFXI ... >.>

I have played FFVI and FFX though. Summons are not "pets", they should not be following you around like a puppy. Summons are powerful creatures you summon at considerable cost to crush your enemies.

Funny, considering everything you have stated is basically a description of the summoner in FFXI, which is what the majority of people who complain about the summoner are after. And you're whole "powerful creatures you summon" is just nonsense. If you want to get technical, our summons are not pets, they're minions. We don't care for them, we don't partake in training them, we simply call them forth from the aether and bind them to our will. Hence, they are summons.

[Bishop81]

Funny, considering everything you have stated is basically a description of the summoner in FFXI, which is what the majority of people who complain about the summoner are after. And you're whole "powerful creatures you summon" is just nonsense. If you want to get technical, our summons are not pets, they're minions. We don't care for them, we don't partake in training them, we simply call them forth from the aether and bind them to our will. Hence, they are summons.

Again, I haven't played FFXI - but you can keep accusing me if you like. I'm mainly going by what I see in other FF games. I think a lot of people want that similar feel.

LOL. I don't see what so "technical" about your assertion.

All I know is Bahamut doesn't follow Yuna around like a puppy.

[BloodPact]

Actually, I have never played FFXI ... >.>

I have played FFVI and FFX though. Summons are not "pets", they should not be following you around like a puppy. Summons are powerful creatures you summon at considerable cost to crush your enemies.

The term pet is widely used in MMOs. Classes / jobs who work with additional entities besides the character the player is controlling are called pet jobs, this is not meant to diminish the importance of the avatar/animal at your side.

The games that you played are single player games; like day and night comparison wise. Since you haven't played FFXI and coincidentally, a lot of the stuff you advocate for is what embodies the Summoner in that game you should take some time to go and read about the past of that job and how it was perceived by the playerbase. You'll find that your approach was already tested and although Summoner in XI has come some way (definitely not a long one) it's still not near any of the desired DPS jobs in there.

XIV's Summoner just works. The egi are not twice your size, Ifrit's Hellfire doesn't cover the entire screen like the Primal's attack does, yes to all of that, but it does well that was designed for.

[Delily]

Again, I haven't played FFXI - but you can keep accusing me if you like. I'm mainly going by what I see in other FF games. I think a lot of people want that similar feel.

LOL. I don't see what so "technical" about your assertion.

All I know is Bahamut doesn't follow Yuna around like a puppy.

I was not accusing you of playing FFXI. It just so happens that everything you have requested is present in the FFXI summoner, which the design team looked at and actively rejected. The pets versus minion arguments is mechanics. Since you seem to know about WoW, it's the difference between a hunter's pets and a warlock's demons. Hunters more interaction with their pet. Also, Bahamut may not follow Yuna around like puppy in the cut scence, but boy, when I told him to do his Overdrive attack against Seymour and then die, he sure didn't buck at that!

[Akiza]

The had articles on why the Warlock from WoW was never popular. The Warlock didn't excel at anything and was mediocre in all areas. They had a low margin so it scared casual players away from it. Also the Warlock doesn't feel more powerful at higher level compared to other classes. SE replicated the same problems with the Summoner. The Summoner should be a Pet Based Job to have an Iconic Image. WoW Warlock has different tiers of Pets they have Minion Pets, Combat Pets and Guardian Pets while the Summoner only has one type of Pet. The only issue with the Warlock was it was the most hated class.