White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

[Slib]

Its called regen....

Regen doesn't come close to what Eos heals for on a single target. It's nice you can roll it on to others tho. Also, I do not use Selene to increase the DPS Output. With the bonus healing that Eos can get and AoE heal itself, you would have to heal less meaning more uptime for your dps. If you had a Black mage I could see using Selene to buff their spell speed (SMN would hate this), but TP Users will burn tp faster ending with tp starving eventually with skill speed boost, as I hear this all the time in my group without Selene. So Selene is generally not as good as it sounds in a long term fight (10 min +)

As for me back tracking and changing what I'm saying, I'm trying to explain myself better as to why I made this thread in the first place.

And yes, the faster trash mobs die in a big pull, the easier it is to heal through it. This is a perfect example...
White Mage Holy spam in dungeons. Toss a stoneskin on the tank, eye for eye, let him do his big pull, divine seal regen him at the end when he tags everything. Maybe do a cure 2 to top him up if needed. Then you presence of mind, cleric stance, holy spam. Stunning them and doing that extra AoE damage goes a long way in how much total damage the tank will take.

Pushing phases faster like T9 also does this too. For instance, the heavens fall phase. One add instead of two. The faster it dies, the better off you are.

As long as people are alive, you are doing it right. The more you can output with damage, the faster the fights go. Adds die faster. Less Healing needed overall.

What do you not see here?

[DarkmoonVael]

What do you not see here?

A balanced, well constructed argument from the outset. And this is the issue people are having with the thread.

The argument you just made about using eos' regen and embrace to heal whilst you dps can equally be applied to a whm using divine seal, regen and medica 2 to facilitate its dps. Whm also comes with more crowd control (sleep, bind, chain stun) than scholar does, making it have far higher utility in certain areas than scholar has. Holy itself facilitates more use of holy, up until stun resistance. Mobs that can be stunned can be chain stunned by a whm, usually mean no healing has to be done in that time period at all (6sec stun, 3sec stun, 1sec stun iirc, meaning 4 global cooldowns of no healing needed).

The issue is, neither class is better than the other in reality. They both heal differently, and both rely upon each other in a raid.

Also, going back to regen, it has the benefit of not suffering from severe bouts of stupidity, unlike selene/eos.

[Slib]

The argument you just made about using eos' regen and embrace to heal whilst you dps can equally be applied to a whm using divine seal, regen and medica 2 to facilitate its dps.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. You forgot to mention that Scholar can DPS while the fairy does this work too. Also costs the Scholar 0 MP where the White Mage spent ~600 for Regen and Medica 2.

Whm also comes with more crowd control (sleep, bind, chain stun) than scholar does, making it have far higher utility in certain areas than scholar has. Holy itself facilitates more use of holy, up until stun resistance. Mobs that can be stunned can be chain stunned by a whm, usually mean no healing has to be done in that time period at all (6sec stun, 3sec stun, 1sec stun iirc, meaning 4 global cooldowns of no healing needed).

You are correct. Also I did mention this in an earlier post that White Mage is good in PvP for its use of CC. Also please do research before posting numbers. Holy is not 6 seconds of a stun. http://xivdb.com/?skill/139/Holy

The issue is, neither class is better than the other in reality. They both heal differently, and both rely upon each other in a raid.

The issue really is, you are failing to understand the mechanics of some fights that I mentioned. T9 relies on a lot of shielding before a mega flare goes out. If you read my comment before, you would see my examples for this and T11's aoe after second phase. These can be done without a White Mage given any group setup. I would never go into T11 without a Scholar. But I wouldn't mind 1 SCH 1 WHM or 2 SCH. So really, for the AoE heavy fights that I know of so far (up to t11), White Mage really isn't needed like Scholar is. Therefor, Scholar doesn't rely upon a White Mage.

Also, going back to regen, it has the benefit of not suffering from severe bouts of stupidity, unlike selene/eos.

I'm guessing you are referring to Eos or Selene doing their own Healing on whoever. This can be fixed by controlling it yourself.

[DarkmoonVael]

Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

You are ignorant of the obvious, and this is why it is being pointed out to you. You seem to be on a little hate crusade against whm, and blinded by your own adamance that you are correct and everyone else is wrong. The fact that you argued this case for scholar, and refused to point out that the same can be done as whm under the circumstances i have shown reflect poorly on your judgement. Construct an argument that is balanced and you wont have these problems.

You neglected to mention anything at all about crowd control and how it fits into raids etc. Again, showing the inherent biased in your argument. These, once again, had to be pointed out to you. Yet your attitude, once again, is to try and change what HAS been discussed. YOU failed to talk about crowd control in your argument.

The issue is not others "failure to understand the mechanics in the fights you mentioned", but your utter selectiveness in what fights you are choosing to say whm is bad and scholar is awesome. The fact that you can only select 2 fights to try and proove your point shows how weak your arguments are. Try healing everyone after the mega flare with a scholar only and keep that tank alive - good luck here.

And now, the icing on the cake for you. How not to read what the person has written. You know, in academia, there are certain short hand phrases used to denote certain things. For example (sic) is used to denote a direct quotation where the original source has used an incorrect spelling of a word. This can be extended to the internet where the abbreviation iirc is used to denote where the principle of the statement is true, but one of the figures may be mildly out. Please learn how to understand these "complicated" meanings before you start debating with people.

Also, your arguments are so flawed, we dont have to do much research to disprove them. Your weakness here is showing.

EDIT: anyone with any experience with scholar will tell you that the fairies do not respond as fast as they would hope. They get animation locked, their A.I. locks them into healing someone else at times. You seem ignorant of this well known fact, yet you main scholar.

[Slib]

You are ignorant of the obvious....

I'm going to take you as a troll from now on. Even though I responded to every little thing in your previous post with a logical answer like Scholars pet doing what you mentioned a White Mage can do for free mp and also saving 2 GCD's for the scholar, you still say that "the same can be done as WHM"

CC doesn't fit in raids. Turn 4 you mean? Gravity on the little bugs? Everything up to this point has been either silences or straight up tank it.

Also anyone with scholar experience could easily understand when Eos will lock herself into casting an Embrace, and the way to get around it when they expect her to do so. I've had issues at first, yes, but like everything...it takes time getting used to it.

[DarkmoonVael]

I'm going to take you as a troll from now on.

Loose a debate, lets call the person who is disproving everything i am saying a troll. Excellent tactic there, really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The issue here isnt the fact that i am not acknowledging that a scholar can do what you are saying. Its the fact that you are refusing to acknowledge what a white mage can do. Your arguments so far have been centred around "in this one unique circumstance, this is what a scholar can do. Why cant a white mage do exactly the same here?".

You think by severely restricting the ground on which this debate is being held over is some what logical. It is, however, nothing to do with logic, but manipulating circumstances to represent your conclusion. Its is crass, and base beyond belief.

It is well known pet A.I. In this game can lead to some undesirable actions, yet you seem to think you alone are immune to this, therefore its a non-issue in this debate you started about why scholars are so good and white mages are so bad.

Sebazy has pointed out some severe flaws in your arguments as well. Your response is to use energy drain to facilitate higher burst damage on a scholar (using all 6 stacks in your own words), thus you have just proven his argument for him. You have had to use a precious resource to do this, thus meaning those 6 lustrates are not there any more. Also you neglect to see that white mage burst damage is aoe, and single target burst damage is irrefutably better on whm than scholar (try using presence of mind in cleric stance and you will see how powerful whm burst damage is)

You then try and refute any rebuttle to this in a very clumsy manner. "Dont worry guys, no burst damage, i dont need those stacks, i have a whm here to pick up the healing slack". Who or what do you think is compansating for those 6 stacks that have just been used?

The title of this thread is white mage vs scholar - why is white mage lacking? It is not, and has never been "current high end game raiding, why does it seem to be tuned such that scholars skill sets and tools are needed more?" Nor has your argument so far been restrcted to current end game raiding.

The other main issue in this thread is, and this has been pointed out many many times by many many people, is that there is no sense of balance in your analysis on these 2 jobs. Non what so ever.

You may want to try and claim i am a troll, nearly all the posts by other on this thread agree with my stance and not yours.

Claiming someone is a troll is really just showing how weak your arguments are and how poor your articulation of these arguments is.

[Parawill]

One thing a lot of people tend to oversee is how the class works. Not the skills, but how the class functions as a whole. The main reason why a lot of people LOVE scholar--aside from their shields, mitigation and DPS boosts--is because of Lustrate.

Now why do I say Lustrate? Because there have been a variety of posts complaining about Lustrate vs. Benediction. But why is this the case? It's because Scholars can do more things between global cooldowns (GCD for short) than White Mages can. And because of this, it enables Scholars to throw in that beautiful clutch Lustrate onto someone while simultaneously throwing out 300 potency embraces on-top of Adlos and Physicks.

So when looking at a Scholar as a whole, they have essentially two global cooldowns and a variety of off-gcd which enable them to output more skills per second. When doing anything as a Scholar, you have three things to do per GCD rotation:

[1] GCD Skills.Aero, Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, Physick, Succor, Adloquium, Leeches, Ruin, Ruin II, Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Resurrection, Shadow Flare, Summon, and Summon II.

[2] Fairy Skills.Embrace, Silent Dusk, Fey Light, Fey Glow, Whispering Dawn, Fey Covenant, and Fey Illumination.

[3] Off-GCD Skills.Surecast, Swiftcast, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Aetherflow, Virus, Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye, Energy Drain and Bane.

Now looking at White Mage, the OP has already pointed out White Mage's strengths and weaknesses. Especially how Regen cannot be compared to an Embrace.

Regen doesn't come close to what Eos heals for on a single target.

Agreed. Embrace has a 300 potency whereas Regen has a 150 potency over a 21 second duration (1050 total potency). Up-front healing is almost always better than heal overtimes as it puts you ahead in healing when it comes to HP per second vs. Damage per second.

Let's see... What else... Oh. A Tl;dr.
When a group is well experienced in a dungeon and is only taking unavoidable raid-damage, Scholars excel because the bulk healing White Mage's have isn't needed. Therefore, the enables Scholars to rely on their second GCD cooldown set (Fairy) to heal while they can DPS and do a variety of other things.

And and and and. Regen =/= Embrace. It's sort of like that question asking you if you'd take 1000 dollars now or get 1000 dollars every 5 years for a total of 50 years ($10000)

[Zedd702]

-snip-

Let's see... What else... Oh. A Tl;dr.
When a group is well experienced in a dungeon and is only taking unavoidable raid-damage, Scholars excel because the bulk healing White Mage's have isn't needed. Therefore, the enables Scholars to rely on their second GCD cooldown set (Fairy) to heal while they can DPS and do a variety of other things.

And and and and. Regen =/= Embrace. It's sort of like that question asking you if you'd take 1000 dollars now or get 1000 dollars every 5 years for a total of 50 years ($10000)

What I don't get is why in the hell anyone would even compare regen to embrace in the first place... It's not a fair comparison at all, even for an argument such as this one. And yes I know that you did not compare it as your last sentence indicates you acknowledge that regen =/= embrace. What I don't agree with in your tl;dr section is this:

Scholars excel because the bulk healing White Mage's have isn't needed. Therefore, the enables Scholars to rely on their second GCD cooldown set (Fairy) to heal while they can DPS and do a variety of other things.

Have you met ANY of the primals? Have you met Scyalla, Xande, Twintania, or even done any of the HM dungeons? And that's just the early content that requires "bulk" (assuming you meant group/AoE) healing.

Seriously AoE healing is needed and scholar's do not possess many tools at all to cover this arena. They cannot sit on a team in a HM dungeon with fairy on auto heal, while they just DPS, sure if they are bad SCH's and let teammates die occasionally during rare instances when tanks lose hate or more frequently when bosses do damage to the entire party.

Scholar and WHM's both have pros and cons. The ONLY thing WHM lacks is a better MP recovery skill. The only thing they should buff is SoS in one of two ways (either slash the recharge time of the skill by half or increase the amount of MP restored). Other than that WHM is just fine as is...

[Kelya]

The ONLY thing WHM lacks is a better MP recovery skill. The only thing they should buff is SoS in one of two ways (either slash the recharge time of the skill by half or increase the amount of MP restored). Other than that WHM is just fine as is...

I would even say WHM is already perfect and does not require any better MP recovery skill Still can't figure out where so many ppl find that WHM have issues with MP ? Actually WHM job is to manage MP, this is different, this is one of the core of the job, not an issue or a lack or whatever x)

[Zedd702]

I would even say WHM is already perfect and does not require any better MP recovery skill Still can't figure out where so many ppl find that WHM have issues with MP ? Actually WHM job is to manage MP, this is different, this is one of the core of the job, not an issue or a lack or whatever x)

Erm I disagree that it's their job per se... That's more of a SCH/SMN responsibility as they have skills to do so IMO... Should the player be aware of their MP playing WHM? Sure. Also don't misunderstand me. Although I said they "should" buff SoS. What I meant to say was if anything the only thing that should be changed is a buff to SoS.

If you have a team that has two WHM and the WHM's are required to rez several times as we know end-game and content can be very demanding on healers. Those rez's can hinder you significantly and in some cases , Titan EX comes to mind, once someone dies they become more difficult to keep alive and sometimes even tumults or other mechanics will kill the party member in question. Yes some of that can be blamed on gear or bad timing of rez's and a plethora of other things.

It's one thing if the WHM is just spamming AoE heals, throwing away their MP, but it's another is they are doing all the can and know what is required in certain phases/mechanics that require DPS checks, mishaps, etc.

I think SCH and WHM are almost perfectly balanced. They complement each other so well and they have clearly defined roles.

Agreed.