White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

[DarkmoonVael]

What do you not see here?

A balanced, well constructed argument from the outset. And this is the issue people are having with the thread.

The argument you just made about using eos' regen and embrace to heal whilst you dps can equally be applied to a whm using divine seal, regen and medica 2 to facilitate its dps. Whm also comes with more crowd control (sleep, bind, chain stun) than scholar does, making it have far higher utility in certain areas than scholar has. Holy itself facilitates more use of holy, up until stun resistance. Mobs that can be stunned can be chain stunned by a whm, usually mean no healing has to be done in that time period at all (6sec stun, 3sec stun, 1sec stun iirc, meaning 4 global cooldowns of no healing needed).

The issue is, neither class is better than the other in reality. They both heal differently, and both rely upon each other in a raid.

Also, going back to regen, it has the benefit of not suffering from severe bouts of stupidity, unlike selene/eos.

[Hysterior]

WHM are so bad that all the group that clear content first all had 2 scholars because they are so much better... wait...
on more serious note, WHM+SCH is just so good and well balanced
only thing WHM need is a benedicton with instant cast. that's it.

[Slib]

The argument you just made about using eos' regen and embrace to heal whilst you dps can equally be applied to a whm using divine seal, regen and medica 2 to facilitate its dps.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. You forgot to mention that Scholar can DPS while the fairy does this work too. Also costs the Scholar 0 MP where the White Mage spent ~600 for Regen and Medica 2.

Whm also comes with more crowd control (sleep, bind, chain stun) than scholar does, making it have far higher utility in certain areas than scholar has. Holy itself facilitates more use of holy, up until stun resistance. Mobs that can be stunned can be chain stunned by a whm, usually mean no healing has to be done in that time period at all (6sec stun, 3sec stun, 1sec stun iirc, meaning 4 global cooldowns of no healing needed).

You are correct. Also I did mention this in an earlier post that White Mage is good in PvP for its use of CC. Also please do research before posting numbers. Holy is not 6 seconds of a stun. http://xivdb.com/?skill/139/Holy

The issue is, neither class is better than the other in reality. They both heal differently, and both rely upon each other in a raid.

The issue really is, you are failing to understand the mechanics of some fights that I mentioned. T9 relies on a lot of shielding before a mega flare goes out. If you read my comment before, you would see my examples for this and T11's aoe after second phase. These can be done without a White Mage given any group setup. I would never go into T11 without a Scholar. But I wouldn't mind 1 SCH 1 WHM or 2 SCH. So really, for the AoE heavy fights that I know of so far (up to t11), White Mage really isn't needed like Scholar is. Therefor, Scholar doesn't rely upon a White Mage.

Also, going back to regen, it has the benefit of not suffering from severe bouts of stupidity, unlike selene/eos.

I'm guessing you are referring to Eos or Selene doing their own Healing on whoever. This can be fixed by controlling it yourself.

[Sebazy]

Oh hey, another balance hate thread, and shock horror, it's bad =/

I play both jobs regularly at the top tier (have cleared T1-12 as both, worked on T13 as both again), they are almost perfectly balanced. Cast your mind back to the 2.0 WAR, or DRGs in FCOB right now, that's a job with issues.

Both healing jobs do have their little flaws, Shroud really could do with some kind of scaling, whilst at least from an EU perspective, SCH shields take far to long in certain cases to actually take hold (I'm looking at you Gigaflare). However, the two jobs compliment each other perfectly in 8 man content and both are absolutely fine for 4 man stuff. I typically go as WHM for uncapped stuff to make the most of big AoE pulls, whilst I'll switch to SCH for low level dungeons due to stronger efficient DPS on regular 3/4 mob packs.

Also, as far as T11 goes, the repelling cannon damage during the add phase is easier to heal as WHM. It's just a little too drawn out to rely on WD/Illum/Covenant/WD alone. Also note that on T12 and T13, the lack of reach on Succor and WD will haunt you. T13 also requires a bit more bar filling oomph on demand than a SCH can consistently command. You most certainly don't have the luxury of waiting a minute for that WD/Rouse combo. If you think T10/11 hit hard, you haven't seen anything yet =)

[DreamWeaver]

Slib If you're so adamant about Sch >>>>WHM, please attempt FCoB with 2 Scholars and upload your play through for all to watch.

In my static, my scholar partner can deal around 200 dps in T10, whereas I as the WHM deal around 50 only, does this mean WHM suck Scholar Rocks?

The thing is, you keep harping around SCH DPS >>>>WHM DPS, but you never realize this is only possible due to the WHM having stronger heals, and this allows you to stay in Cleric Stance for an extremely long period of time.

So next time you think SCH DPS >>>WHM DPS, please remember the numbers you are able to put out is not solely due to you being an awesome SCH that can DPS, but in part due to the awesome WHM that is able to solo heal that particular time frame with help of your fairy and your occasional Lustrates if the WHM lose focus for 0.5-1 GCD (Yes it's pretty unforgiving ).

[Thistledown]

To me this thread feels like you're complaining that oranges are juicier than apples. They're both fruits but oranges have that lead in Vitamin C!! The Twelve plx buff apples.

WHM has access to a number of hard crowd control. This lets them selectively take on only a few mobs at a time, conserving their resource on a long run

[DarkmoonVael]

Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

You are ignorant of the obvious, and this is why it is being pointed out to you. You seem to be on a little hate crusade against whm, and blinded by your own adamance that you are correct and everyone else is wrong. The fact that you argued this case for scholar, and refused to point out that the same can be done as whm under the circumstances i have shown reflect poorly on your judgement. Construct an argument that is balanced and you wont have these problems.

You neglected to mention anything at all about crowd control and how it fits into raids etc. Again, showing the inherent biased in your argument. These, once again, had to be pointed out to you. Yet your attitude, once again, is to try and change what HAS been discussed. YOU failed to talk about crowd control in your argument.

The issue is not others "failure to understand the mechanics in the fights you mentioned", but your utter selectiveness in what fights you are choosing to say whm is bad and scholar is awesome. The fact that you can only select 2 fights to try and proove your point shows how weak your arguments are. Try healing everyone after the mega flare with a scholar only and keep that tank alive - good luck here.

And now, the icing on the cake for you. How not to read what the person has written. You know, in academia, there are certain short hand phrases used to denote certain things. For example (sic) is used to denote a direct quotation where the original source has used an incorrect spelling of a word. This can be extended to the internet where the abbreviation iirc is used to denote where the principle of the statement is true, but one of the figures may be mildly out. Please learn how to understand these "complicated" meanings before you start debating with people.

Also, your arguments are so flawed, we dont have to do much research to disprove them. Your weakness here is showing.

EDIT: anyone with any experience with scholar will tell you that the fairies do not respond as fast as they would hope. They get animation locked, their A.I. locks them into healing someone else at times. You seem ignorant of this well known fact, yet you main scholar.

[Sebazy]

Scholar can bring MORE UTILITY and DAMAGE to the group compared to a White Mage given the same scenarios.

Going to disagree with this little gem in multiple ways:

SCH's strength whilst DPSing is two fold, as you mention, they still retain a portion of healing potential whilst in cleric stance (aka fairy and lustrate) and they are less hamstrung by accuracy.

However! First up, their primary burst and AE abilities tend to have 'gotcha's, Lustrate is charge limited and conflicts with DPS potential, Rouse/WD is on a minute cooldown, group wants Selene buffs? There goes half your AE healing. The list goes on.

On the flip side, whilst SCH brings utility, WHM brings controllable burst, be it AoE healing or instant (potentially AoE) dps. If accuracy isn't an issue, a WHM can edge out a SCH in single target and AoE it's not even close. For Levi EX my whm opener has me around 250dps right off the bat, for Mog ex my opener can get me north of 800+ dps if I get the timing right. You mention sub 50 dungeons being an advantage for SCH dps but don't mention uncapped stuff?, did you miss the whole Wander's palace/AK/Brayflox HM/Tamtara HM thing? I've done DPS in those dungeons that rivals true DD jobs, I couldn't come close to achieving the same numbers as SCH regardless of if I was healing the group or not. I also tanked Titan HM in 2.0 as whm, whilst it's a fairly redundant point, it's something that SCH can't really do due to the lack of raw throughput.

Don't take this as me bashing SCHs because I'm not, I spent most of Coil2 as one, as well as half of my time in FCOB, both jobs are fine.

[Slib]

Going to disagree with this little gem in multiple ways:...

Don't believe I ever mentioned low level dungeons for scholar, as I do not count balance in low levels because generally MMOs are never balanced in that way. Balance usually happens at max level (coming from a WoW standpoint here).

Also, for the burst on Leviathan... 6 Energy Drains weaved between Shadowflare, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio 1, Aero on Leviathan with ruin 2 to get the last few energy drains out is a lot more burst than anything a White Mage can do. Also on Leviathan, dots tick after he jumps. Scholars dots out number White Mage by a lot in potency.

And before anyone jumps down my throat about using the 6 aetherflow stacks immediately on leviathan, there is not much pressure at all early on in that fight, so you can use all 6 early if you'd like for energy drain with a pot popped.

Also, if you want to mention about doing oddball things like tanking Titan as White Mage (ive done this with a group of 7 whm 1 sch lol), I've solod Brayflox Hard Mode as Scholar...tho never tried that as a White Mage. Scholar seemed to get around some of the mechanics a lot easier...

As for moggle, you are right, but getting down to specifics there you are pushing an easy phase too. If you kept on with aoeing when you had the opportunity to hit more and also doing stone 2's with aero 2 and aero properly, you'd run dry of MP, regardless of popping shroud early and then every time its up. Through the fight the scholar will most likely creep ahead. But yeah, the burst early on is fun.

And I've also said that Holy is good for dungeons. WHM brings the AoE burst. But my concern was more on raid progression fights.

[Slib]

You are ignorant of the obvious....

I'm going to take you as a troll from now on. Even though I responded to every little thing in your previous post with a logical answer like Scholars pet doing what you mentioned a White Mage can do for free mp and also saving 2 GCD's for the scholar, you still say that "the same can be done as WHM"

CC doesn't fit in raids. Turn 4 you mean? Gravity on the little bugs? Everything up to this point has been either silences or straight up tank it.

Also anyone with scholar experience could easily understand when Eos will lock herself into casting an Embrace, and the way to get around it when they expect her to do so. I've had issues at first, yes, but like everything...it takes time getting used to it.