2.41 patch, Ninja nerf for the Ninjas and Dungeons.

[Nalien]

No it does not destroy your dmg or cause you to waste your mudra (at least if you are paying attention), but that is like saying I have a broken pinky but I'm going to leave it like that cause its just an "annoyance". You can still function fine with a broken pinky but why would you want to leave it that way? Same situation here.

Going "Ninjutsu is harder because latency!" and balancing it accordingly, is, to continue your metaphor, the same as going "Some of our players have broken pinkies so balance content around that".

The solution is to fix latency/get a new ISP, not to go "Some people play on dial up so we'll make Ninjutsu powerful, since they'll easily mess up a simple 3 skill combo".

Also, I disagree with this;

Heavy Thrust and Chaos Thrust have no dependency on latency if you miss them that is all on you.

"I have latency issues and Titan turned to do Landslide as I hit Impulse Drive". That's also why Dragoon #349 ate Landslide and fell off, by the way.

Heck, I don't see how Monk is hard given this... If Dragoon missing directionals is all on them, the same is true for Monk. At least when Monk misses, it's just a potency decrease (if that), not something which disrupts the flow of their rotation.

It doesn't even matter about latency when it comes to Dragoon and Monk. Fight mechanics can simply make it either impossible, or unfavourable, to meet directional requirements. It has always been that way, regardless of latency adding to the problem on occasion. The difference is Monk keeps going while Dragoon has to stop and try again. If I remember correctly, that's basically why Monk has always been favoured by players over Dragoon. If anything, Monk is easy, and Dragoon and Ninja are hard.

[Ephier]

Going "Ninjutsu is harder because latency!" and balancing it accordingly, is, to continue your metaphor, the same as going "Some of our players have broken pinkies so balance content around that".

The solution is to fix latency/get a new ISP, not to go "Some people play on dial up so we'll make Ninjutsu powerful, since they'll easily mess up a 3 skill combo".

The point of the analogy* not metaphor, was to fix the pinky, not leave it broken just because you can. Its not just "some" people who have this issue, its quite a few who have this issue there is a thread in the English and Japanese DPS sections about it. Its not about messing up the combo, its about the speed at which the combo comes out. No one wants the Mudras more powerful. We just want them to fix the input delay on them.

It doesn't even matter about latency when it comes to Dragoon and Monk.

You are just agreeing with my points here. There is no other class in the game that is latency dependent. Ninja is the only one. All other classes can be played smoothly with upwards of 140 ping.

[Nalien]

No one wants the Mudras more powerful. We just want them to fix the input delay on them.

At which point, preforming Ninjutsu stops being "hard", and the argument that "Ninja is powerful because Ninjutsu is hard" falls flat, which was the point I was originally arguing against.

The idea that Monk and Ninja are difficult to play, so that's why they're better than Dragoon, completely baffles me. Ninja camps a mobs butt for Trick Attack every 60 seconds, it's the easiest to play. Monk moves between Flank/Rear, and failing to meet those requirements doesn't slow down your rotation. I would honestly say Dragoon is the "hardest" to play, simply because being unable to get the requirements messes with your rotation (I guess there's also the issue of Dragoon having ability animation lock while Monk doesn't), honestly though they're all easy to play.

You are just agreeing with my points here. There is no other class in the game that is latency dependent. Ninja is the only one. All other classes can be played smoothly with upwards of 140 ping.

Well, I don't think we really disagreed anyway, more misunderstood. I disagreed with another posters notion than Ninja and Monk are harder than Dragoon, and the only reason anyone could claim Ninja is hard is Ninjutsu latency. Sitting on a mobs rear is not hard, after all. Nor is weaving between flank and rear, for that matter, but whatever.

[Ephier]

At which point, preforming Ninjutsu stops being "hard", and the argument that "Ninja is powerful because Ninjutsu is hard" falls flat, which was the point I was originally arguing against.

The idea that Monk and Ninja are difficult to play, so that's why they're better than Dragoon, completely baffles me. Ninja camps a mobs butt for Trick Attack every 60 seconds, it's the easiest to play. Monk moves between Flank/Rear, and failing to meet those requirements doesn't slow down your rotation. I would honestly say Dragoon is the "hardest" to play, simply because being unable to get the requirements messes with your rotation, honestly though they're all easy to play.

Well, I don't think we really disagreed anyway, more misunderstood. I disagreed with another posters notion than Ninja and Monk are harder than Dragoon, and the only reason anyone could claim Ninja is hard is Ninjutsu latency. Sitting on a mobs rear is not hard, after all. Nor is weaving between flank and rear, for that matter, but whatever.

I honestly think Dragoons are the hardest melee in the game. They have a blessing and a curse of having a set in stone rotation, but are plagued by positionals. Also Ninjas damage should not be justified by their "difficulty" because they are not hard to play. Mudras are just really annoying with the inconsistency.

[Nalien]

I honestly think Dragoons are the hardest melee in the game. They have a blessing and a curse of having a set in stone rotation, but are plagued by positionals. Also Ninjas damage should not be justified by their "difficulty" because they are not hard to play. Mudras are just really annoying with the inconsistency.

Agreed. The only reason I even think Raiton should be nerfed is because it utterly wreaks people in PvP (especially double Raiton), but that nerf can be applied solely to PvP. Other than that I just think the range on it is ridiculous, since it renders Fuma Shuriken completely moot. 5y on Raiton seems reasonable, range and potency seems overpowered to me.

I guess there's also the issue of DoT; Ninja offers 70 potency/tic in DoTs, Monk 65, and Dragoon 55 (iirc). Given the fact that Ninja and Monk have zero directional requirements, while Dragoon requires a rear attack for the Chaos Thrust combo, they seem backwards. Perhaps they feel the superior instant potency of Chaos Thrust balances that out, though.

this is so wrong lol /facepalm

Because it sounds wrong, or because having only a single directional requirement in Trick Attack is somehow harder than the multiple Monk and Dragoon have? Heck, if you have a Warrior tank you can knock Dancing Edge off your rotation on Ninja, it is insanely easy to play. Ninjas rotation is both less complex than Dragoon or Monks, and has no directional requirements outside Trick Attack. It is by far the easiest of the three to play.

[Scrammbles]

Because it sounds wrong, or because having only a single directional requirement in Trick Attack is somehow harder than the multiple Monk and Dragoon have? Heck, if you have a Warrior tank you can knock Dancing Edge off your rotation on Ninja, it is insanely easy to play.

you are judging the difficulty of a class by the amount of positionals it has. that alone is just illogical.

[Nalien]

you are judging the difficulty of a class by the amount of positionals it has. that alone is just illogical.

How so? More positional moves = more chance to fail them, weakening your DPS. Even if we ignore that though, Ninja simply has an easier basic rotation anyway (primarily because of Venoms being a static buff rather than an additional effect from part of its rotation), again more so with a Warrior tank since you can just cut Dancing Edge out completely.

Ninja is the Bard of melee DPS. Anyone who thinks it is a difficult Job to play needs to stop deluding themselves...

lol do me a favor and tell me your NIN rotation pls

You first, maybe then you'll realize how ridiculously simplistic it is. You can keep ignoring simple facts like Ninja simply gets a damage buff, while Monk and Dragoon have to work it into their rotation, though.

I like how that this guy does not even have Rogue unlocked yet and telling people if the job is easy or hard.

I like how you're assuming this account is the one I play.

Doesn't all sound too bad, but dealing with a boss with a lot of mechanics can make keeping up all of this very difficult.

So... It doesn't sound too bad, but when dealing with boss mechanics which everyone has to deal with, it becomes difficult?

Again; Ninja just has to glue itself to a mobs butt for Trick Attack. Monk and Dragoon have to weave between rear and flank. "When dealing with lots of mechanics" already makes itself twice as "difficult" for them. Ninja can miss Trick Attack every 60 seconds. Dragoon can mess up its rotation every time it gets to Heavy Thrust or Impulse Drive. Monk can lose potency at almost every turn, and can typically say goodbye to Greased Lightning at various mechanics. Ninja simply is easier to play, and it will remain that way as long as Monk and Dragoon have to continually apply their damage buff while Ninja just gets to keep it up full time.

this is the only point which i think is quiet ridiculous... i mean for what do i have a permanent buff, that grants me 10% additional damage? for what? Then they could increase the damage of ninja in general by 10% and leave that nonsense buff completely out..

i rather would have liked if the venom buff grants you a 10% chance to inflict poison on your enemy.. would have made much more sense than this permanent buff.. and it would fit to the skill name as well.

At the very least I was hoping it would wear off... Perhaps have it as an Aetherflow style buff which lasts for X GCD attacks, since it is fairly odd that venoms I've applied to my blades are some how effecting the damage of my magical lightning stance... That at least makes for a fairly interesting secondary mechanic of balancing which venom you have for Mug/Jugulate and even having venom at all for various parts of your rotation.

[Velhart]

snip

I like how that this guy does not even have Rogue unlocked yet and telling people if the job is easy or hard.

I won't say Ninja is more difficult than MNK or DRG, but it definitely comes with it's own hardships. You have to manage keeping Shadow Edge, Dancing Edge, and Mutilate up while being able to get one Aeolian Edge in before you have to reapply all of them again. Two Aeolian Edge's if a WAR is handling the slash buff for you, then you can ignore Dancing Edge. Then you have your mudra which feels like a completely separate mechanic on it's own. Always keeping Huton up and able to do a Trick Attack and Raiton before having to reapply Huton, keeping heavy surveillance of your bar (2 Raitons if you have Kassatsu up). Doesn't all sound too bad, but dealing with a boss with a lot of mechanics can make keeping up all of this very difficult. Screw up a Huton once, that is a gigantic DPS loss for 20 seconds, -20- seconds. Not to mention, the mudra being laggy because the game does not register a .5sec GCD very well. Even with a low ping and latency, it is a big issue still and something SE needs to fix.

[SpookyGhost]

You have to manage keeping Shadow Edge, Dancing Edge, and Mutilate up while being able to get one Aeolian Edge in before you have to reapply all of them again. Two Aeolian Edge's if a WAR is handling the slash buff for you, then you can ignore Dancing Edge.

Take what I say with a grain of salt as I haven't leveled NIN and only roughly know how it works based on vids and my friends who play the job at end game, but that just sounds like a standard rotation. It actually seems like a priority system, similar to DRG.

Then you have your mudra which feels like a completely separate mechanic on it's own. Always keeping Huton up and able to do a Trick Attack and Raiton before having to reapply Huton, keeping heavy surveillance of your bar (2 Raitons if you have Kassatsu up).

I actually think Mudras are pretty sweet since it's sort of like Wrath for WAR. It's a new mechanic for melee that people will have to learn and get down to muscle memory, which does give it a bit of a steep learning curve. Messing up a Huton will definitely severely gimp your DPS for the duration that your Mudras are down, and while MNK has it's own unique mechanic in GL3, losing it is fairly hard to do unless the boss jumps or your keyboard catches on fire. However, I do think this is similar to DRG missing a positional, especially Heavy Thrust. Missing either HT or Disembowel basically ruins your entire (long) rotation, and you can either continue it hoping that eventually it patches up or you have to start all over. If a boss stays perfectly still, I'd say Mudras require a bit more work as you do have to pay attention to when they come back up. If a boss is twisting and turning, I'd say things either even out or are in DRG's favor, as DRG is then required to know when the boss will turn to not attempt going for a HT and ending up hitting the rear or Disembowling the flank.

I'd say NIN is definitely different than the other 2 melee. All have their own unique things to deal with, and I'd say they're all on relatively equal footing. MNK has it a bit easier than both as missing a positional just means a single loss in potency, but neither MNK nor DRG should really be missing their positionals.

Anyway, would just be cool if all the melee were roughly on par with eachother. Give DRG some Utility, buff MDef, slightly more potency on stuff just to bring it up a bit and everything's square.

... Enix.

[Scrammbles]

. Ninja camps a mobs butt for Trick Attack every 60 seconds, it's the easiest to play. .

this is so wrong lol /facepalm