Myth Message being used to excluded players

[Ellatrix]

How do you prove you have multiple clears? And what's your policy on alts when their main has the clear?



I'd like to take you up on that. Because I seem to remember that people who bought clears get priority over those that know the fight but were just unsuccessful in clearing it yet.

Post #23, linked for your convenience.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2570209

[Snugglebutt]

Post #23, linked for your convenience.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2570209

Having the weapon does not prove multiple clears...could of got on first clear, a clear which paid for and/or was carried, a clear of which you could of been laying on the ground dead for the entire run while everyone else finished it. Multiple people have proven how ignorant using a clear is in comparison to actual ability or competence already just like they have proven how ignorant your use of soldiery notice as justification to kick and exclude people. I would not be surprised if you yourself had been carried all the way up onto that pedestal you so proudly look down on others from, even if is not the case it would not surprise me at this stage.

ilvl110 requirement is not evidence that they can clear content themselves and was also extremely easy to get even prior to 2.4 which in itself is not evidence of anything more than they have done ST multiple times using oils and sands to upgrade from 100-110, ST is extremely easy in part due to the nature of having 7 other people in your own group to counter incompetence plus another 16 from other groups to do such too and a large amount of people are carried through it all the time. It is not evidence that they can do coils or anything other than ST and even then does not prove they are capable of doing the fights within ST themselves.

I myself have had to cover other alliance groups because of people being carried in them whether having to clear their adds in time or position adds correctly as well as cover many other mistakes or signs of incompetence. Quite a lot of times I have actually seen people purposefully get killed so that they could respawn and wait outside the fight zone for everyone else to do all the work then they roll on the loot when the boss is dead. I am also not the only one who has seen this and ST is not the only place people are seen doing it.

Your an elitist but your an ignorant one which is worse, one who's ego is so big or potentially fragile you refuse to admit when you are wrong on something. You have been factually proven wrong so many times in here, it's not even funny anymore. A prime example (one of many) is from post #88 on mine in which I called fallacy on something which has been proven fallacy by multiple people, you went on to prove your ignorance by claiming I was wrong and that it was not fallacy when factually it was. You then moved the goal posts like you continue to do when at risk of having to admit you was wrong and changed the context in order to continue avoiding admitting you was wrong.

People have already reduced half the things you said in this thread to ashes and when your not trying to rake up those ashes in an attempt to rebuild and reuse, your busy moving the goal posts like when someone says one comment is factually wrong you will ignore that part and then head down a different path. Changing the subject or trying to alter the context. On this topic, on this subject you have been proven to be ignorant many times so give it a rest already. Honestly talking to you is like talking to a child, your so belligerent, arrogant and ignorant.

This does not however mean your always wrong on everything for example I actually agree with one comment you made in another thread that paying for clears is acceptable in the game, of which I made a long post about it in a previous thread, however on this subject we are currently discussing above and in this thread you have been proven wrong many times, you have been shown to be ignorant on many things being discussed within this one but your ego is not letting you admit your errors or back down when proven wrong. Do yourself a favor and stop trying to wriggle out of the hole you dug for yourself in here.

[Ellatrix]

Doesn't prove squat. As Snugglebutt already posted, you could get a HA weapon in a number of scenarios. And you still failed to answer my question regarding your policy on alts where the character does not have the clear, but the player does.

Only if I personally know the player. Also as I do a majority of T9 sales on the server, I know who the buyers are - and they don't join my farm parties anyway.

I really don't understand why people with little to no raid experience are trying to debate criteria for making an effective party, when this isn't an activity that they partake in.

Once again you change the subject in an effort to avoid admitting when your wrong.

Avoiding what? I'm not wrong. You are since you have literally not done any content that requires spending more than 30 minutes to learn.

[Snugglebutt]

Avoiding what? I'm not wrong. You are since you have literally not done any content that requires spending more than 30 minutes to learn.

Yes what you said previously in this thread of which I spoke about has been proven wrong many times in many aspects within this thread, being in denial does not change this. I think it is about time you grow up and start taking responsibility for the things you say and do. When your wrong about something, have the humility to admit it and move on instead of deflecting criticism, moving the goal posts, changing the subject or changing the context in the hopes that you can dig your way out of the hole you created for yourself. I do not think you are stupid so it must be down to arrogance or ego as to why you keep doing so.

I see however instead of doing that your making yet another ignorant statement trying to associate my partial raid experience (which is by far plenty enough to discuss the topic in an educated and informed manner), implying because I have not cleared as much raid content as you that I have no right to talk about it. Just like someone saying if you haven't even cleared T13 how dare you comment on coils in general. I sometimes wonder if you even think before you speak/type...I have more than enough experience to talk about and discuss the pitfalls and benefits of what this topic is about and everything I have referred to in your comments whether that is about forming PF groups or clearing content from raids, trials and dungeons. I have more than enough experience and common sense to counter the fallacies you spout.

Your inaccurate and often proven wrong statements in here however have come from both people who have partial raid experience and those who have probably as much as yourself. You lack common sense and also fail to take into account I got my current EX clears and raid clears in the space of around two weeks taking it very casually and sparsely due to RL work commitments.

Just because I have not yet bothered to even form a group for trying to do for example T9 does not mean I am incapable of doing it when I choose to get around to trying so it does not indicate in any way whatsoever my competence for doing them when I choose to try in the future. Achievements in profiles also do not tell you how many attempts it took to clear that content and as such is not related to competence of a person or their ability to handle the content. Taking into account all of this does also not change the fact I have used PF and DF more than enough times to be educated on the pros and cons of each plus explaining the pitfalls and problems with the soldiery notification at start of a trial, dungeon or raid run which is abused or misused in more areas of the game than just PF listings.

None of this changes that once again you refused to deal with the inaccuracy pointed out to you in a previous comment, you again decided to change the subject in an effort to deflect from accepting your previous comments were wrong and factually inaccurate. If anyone ever disagrees with you they will quickly see you will never admit you are wrong about anything even when proven wrong by many people, you will always deflect criticism by changing the subject or changing the context all in an effort to avoid admitting your mistakes just like you have done this time again.

Your like the puppet in Punch and Judy, when everyone is telling you he's behind you...you refuse to believe them or accept that yes, he is in fact behind you. When you finally turn around and see you are wrong though your reaction instead of saying "oh, so he is behind me..." your response is more akin to yelling at the crowd things like "well...erm...he is not the same guy I was referring to or talking about!" or "well you people in the audience are not puppets, how dare you speak to me until you become a puppet too!". Everyone can clearly see your just moving the goal posts or deflecting because cannot bare to be wrong about anything. The fact is in this hypothetical scenario the guy was behind you, the audience was right and they were right regardless of not being actual puppets too and the same applies to a lot of your comments in here where people having pointed out the errors in your stance or mistakes in your statements.

[Kinseykinz]

You're kind of in a bubble and I wonder the skill level of the players you play with. You've done T5 <4 times. You've only set foot in first coil in the last month, and you haven't even touched second coil. You haven't cleared TitanX, IfritX, MogX, RamuhX, or ShivaX.

Why are you trying to somehow speak of content in which you flat out have zero experience in? I guess I see why you're now trying to argue so hard that people without clears should be let in farm parties...

First off, you again are missing the forest for the trees. Just because someone has yet to clear T9, doesn't automatically make them a 'bad' player. It ONLY makes them 'someone who hasn't cleared T9' Nothing more, nothing less.

But let me use my own personal 2.0 history for you, to give an example of the type of people you continue to harass in this debate.

At launch, I was in the 'top' static of my FC. So by October of that patch, we had T1-4 on farm (including doing T2's actual 'rot' method), and were poised to work on T5. One of our static mates found out he had cancer, and we all decided, to wait to challenge T5 until he was well enough to work at it. Other static's simply would have said 'Sorry to hear that dude', found a replacement and continued on, we did not. But, this meant, we didn't even try T5 again until January. Meaning, we had access for MONTHS, and never set foot inside, just kept farming T1-4 each week. Also, because we were the 'top' team of the FC, we were the team that typically beat all the EX primals First, and then taught other people in the FC the battles. So we cleared, Garuda,Titan, and Iffy EX....and then purposefully took new folk in instead of farming stuff for ourselves and not assisting FC mates.

Still, around late Jan, I left this FC due to internal reasons. I then joined a newer FC, with members that had just recently started playing. Over the next several months, I helped them all 'catch up' to me. This meant teaching them, and patiently sitting through many, many wipes as they learned all the 'old' content on their way to unlocking the current content I was sitting poised to do. Sure, I also occasionally worked on my own progression outside the FC with other groups of Friends, but for the most part, I dedicated most of my 'endgame' time towards assisting my FC mates. They now, are up to T6, and Ramuh EX content wise, which is pretty good considering most of them play pretty casually, and only started after Christmas.

But now, I'm pregnant. I cannot commit to an endgame 'raid static' because over the past couple months, I needed to go throw up a lot (thanks minion). But by early spring, I'm going to likely need to take an extended break from the game...or bare min., simply cannot commit to playing on a specific time schedule as it would not be fair to my raid group to be like 'yo sorry we're at 20% on this boss, but my baby really needs to be fed right now' And/or just the sporatic 10-20ish minute breaks I would need to potentially take to attend to said minion. Sure, there are people in game who don't consider others time and work...but I am not one of those. Therefore, for the next year, unless I feel compelled to join a Party Finder party (which I seldom do), or unless someone in my FC invites me to the battle, I likely will be sitting on the sidelines for most of the 'endgame' content. Which is okay. But my personal playing skill did not diminish.

Case in point, last night was the first night I tried T7, and no, we did not win. But over all the wipes that happened, only 1 was partially my fault, and even that was more on the kiter than me. (I missed cursing one of the Ranalds b/c he was too far out from the pile and he woke up/1-shot me and then the other healer=no healers=wipe). The rest of them were other party members not kiting right, or stoning eachother/the party what have you. But really, nothing I could do about that. Basically, meaning, I have no doubts that I could join a 'clear' party and win.....likely even a farm party if I wanted to be especially brave. (But again, I don't typically use PF, so just like last night, I'll wait until someone asks 'KK mind healing T7?' and do it then). But just because I'm in no rush, and just because I haven't put a priority into this content, doesn't mean I'm automatically a horrible player.

Only if I personally know the player. Also as I do a majority of T9 sales on the server, I know who the buyers are - and they don't join my farm parties anyway.

I really don't understand why people with little to no raid experience are trying to debate criteria for making an effective party, when this isn't an activity that they partake in.



Avoiding what? I'm not wrong. You are since you have literally not done any content that requires spending more than 30 minutes to learn.

And therein lies your REAL problem. You do not want people to be capable of winning their first runs via PF...or even DF, because you would prefer to prey upon them and make gil. You do realize most people would rather never beat the content than pay the likes of you to 'assist' them with it. You are simply trying to protect your earnings, and the only way you feel you can do that is to exclude every single soul on your server who hasn't already cleared the content in established groups. Most people joining, learning,clear, and farm parties via the PF however are doing it b/c they don't have established static's (for whatever reason). They don't want to waste your time...and they are hoping the group doesn't waste theirs. They want to earn their wins, not 'buy' them (after all, if they wanted to buy it, you already offer the service).

So yes, you are perfectly within your right to say 'no 100tome bonus' or 'must possess a High Allagan weapon', but by so doing, you are keeping a pretty large percentage of the talent pool out of your parties/groups. Furthermore, most people who meet your requirements, aren't actually in need of a 'farming' party anymore anyway. Still, I have been in plenty of runs where the 100-tome person isn't the one wiping the group...the person with the High Allagan actually is. (lovely ST fun). And yes, I've seen High Allagan sporting party members still fall off Titan HM's platform in a duty roulette. But if gear=skill, and 1 clear=skill to you, nothing anyone here can say will ever change it. Personally, I think that my ability to heal, and pull through hard content with a rag-tag, under geared, still trying to get their first clears team, and us all being successful, proves I might actually heal better than those garbed in High-allagan who only play with equally experienced team mates, and who never have to scramble and cover for party member mistakes, but hey, your party, your rules. If you want to insist folk like me 'suck', feel free. You just keep making yourself look bad.

[Sapphic]

Having the weapon does not prove multiple clears...

Their party, their rules. You don't like the rules? Don't join the party, and don't demand that they change their rules for you. They can set the rules to whatever they want, as strict as they want or even as silly as they want, It is their choice and they are using PF for what it was designed for!

Party Finder was implemented to help you find players to fit your requirements.

No party in PF that fits your personal requirements? Make your own instead of complaining that others who are, are asking for other requirements.

[Snugglebutt]

Their party, their rules. You don't like the rules? Don't join the party, and don't demand that they change their rules for you. They can set the rules to whatever they want, as strict as they want or even as silly as they want, It is their choice and they are using PF for what it was designed for!

Party Finder was implemented to help you find players to fit your requirements.

No party in PF that fits your personal requirements? Make your own instead of complaining that others who are, are asking for other requirements.

Just because someone can do something does not always mean they should. People will abuse and misuse anything if they can and in this case that is what has happened to it. The idea and principle behind the introduction of the soldiery bonus was intended to be a good thing but people have taken one part of this feature namely the start of run notification and turned it into something harmful and bad for the people it was put in to help.

Either way I am sure my case for the removal of the notification at the start of a trial, raid and dungeon has been made in a sufficient manner for getting it removed already. The argument for it's removal due to not only it's misuse in PF listed which narrow minded people keep focusing on and trying to argue with me about but also its abuse in other areas of the game from fishing for soldiery bonus only runs to using it in a way opposite to it's intended purpose, hurting the new players it was designed to help. As such I do not think will be around for too long in which case this issue will be resolved soon enough. No-one here has given a good enough excuse to keep it just so that they can keep misusing and abusing it as opposed to removing it which resolves such misuse and abuse.

It's removal stops people from using/abusing the bonus notification at a start of a run to ditch groups which ask for vote kick, force a vote kick/abandon via disconnecting for few minutes or wiping the group on purpose in order to get kicked so can continue fishing for bonus only runs after left that group in the lurch...which is something SE already agree fishing in dungeon runs and such is something they want to stop hence the 30 minute penalty attempt to stop it before. The notification is being used to decide whether to ditch runs right at the start because of the notification popping up before the run has began instead of just at the end of which if was just at the end they would have to do the run before find out if was bonus soldiery, they would be forced to only judge people on their ability and competence during that run if only shown at the end and they would have to try to complete a run to see if they get rewarded with the bonus which is how it should be because that way people could not misuse/abuse it.

It's removal at start of a run will also stop people misusing it in PF listings when both the credibility and validity of using that notification as a way of judging competence or ability has been on multiple occasions is shown to not only be inaccurate and naive but also on top of that people are misusing it and using it to do the opposite of why it was implemented...even if this notification was removed from the game it would not be detrimental to groups in PF as nothing stops them for asking for cleared only people, item linked people or achievement linked people. They will still be able to kick people who lied about that only they will be kicking them for the right reasons like if they fail and are proven to be incompetent just like they do if someone who links achievement/item or has clear is shown to be incompetent.

It was added to help new players, to assist them and convince people to help them but far too many people are doing the opposite and using it to target and harm new players, it is not working as intended and like all things not working as intended it should be fixed. So keep hating on me all you want but I am quite sure SE are smart enough and wise enough to see the removal of the initial pop up notification at the start of runs will do more good than harm and I am sure it will be removed sooner rather than later because of this.

[Sapphic]

Just because someone can do something does not always mean they should. People will abuse and misuse anything if they can and in this case that is what has happened to it. The idea and principle behind the introduction of the soldiery bonus was intended to be a good thing but people have taken one part of this feature namely the start of run notification and turned it into something harmful and bad for the people is was put in to help.

Putting requirements for a certain type of player in PF parties is not a misuse of the system. Kicking someone out after stating you want a certain criteria and finding out they do not fill it is not misuse of the system. If someone is looking for a healer for PF, would you join as a BRD? Same thing applies to those asking for players with previous clears.

If someone joins a PF party that requires clears and they don't have a clear, they lied and why won't they expect a kick? If they PMd the PF leader and explained the situation, IF they can clear to 1% and the party accepts that, then fine. If all these who say they can clear to about 1% and the wipe is "always someone else" if they are as good as they try to project then they would not need to lie to get into parties.

All these players claiming they can get the boss to 1%, last person standing, never make mistakes, always the other players, all those parties have one thing in common. The person making those claims.

Hard truth is too many players want to hide the fact they do not know the fight, whether with outright lies or if they changed it to hiding the bonus for new players because they just want to be carried to an easy win witht he feeling of self entitlement that they can join any farm party they deisre and leech.

[Snugglebutt]

Putting requirements for a certain type of player in PF parties is not a misuse of the system. Kicking someone out after stating you want a certain criteria and finding out they do not fill it is not misuse of the system. If someone is looking for a healer for PF, would you join as a BRD? Same thing applies to those asking for players with previous clears.

It is not a misuse of the PF system, the PF system is designed to filter groups, the PF system is working as intended and I never once said the PF system was being misused or abused. I said it is a misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' both within the PF system and outside of it, the notification is not working as intended as the soldiery notification was not designed to be used in that way...people are exploiting the lack of foresight by SE when introduced this notification which was a means to help new players but some people turning it instead against new players. The whole thread is about the misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' at the start of raids, trials and dungeons.

[Sapphic]

It is not a misuse of the PF system, the PF system is designed to filter groups and I never once said the PF system was being misused or abused. I said it is a misuse of the 'soldiery notification' both within the PF system and outside of it, the soldiery notification was not designed to be used in that way. The whole thread is about the misuse and abuse of the 'soldiery notification' at the start of raids, trials and dungeons.

Most players do not state they are new, more often than not you only know their is a player new to a duty because of that message. Using the soldiery notification is a necessary evil because those without clears or even no experience of the fight still think they are able to join any PF party they want to, irregardless of the posted requirements to join.

No notification? Players without clears can lie their way into a clear party and potentially waste everyone elses time. Keeping the notification prevents that. IF people didn't lie their way in, it wouldn't be needed. But they do, so it is.

Taking it to the DF, if a bonus sold pops up I know someone is new and can explain strats, if no message pops then no one is and can just start the run. Without that message I wouldn't know as in most cases hardly anyone states it is their first time.