When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[SpookyGhost]

that annoying twister attack which is literally the DUMBEST concept in a video game ever.

Twister is actually over hyped, even among the most casual of players. The strict nature of the ability in 2.0 was completely removed, making it a much more simplified mechanic. It quite literally boils down to this:

- Spread out after Twin casts her ultimate ability and the MT is repositioning her in the middle of the hand.
- Have Twin Focus Target'd before her and the scourges are actually engaged. It will remain for the rest of the fight, and you can even see her casting Divebomb (though if you move when she starts casting, it will be too little too late).
- When Twister is being cast, move in a half circle. A line works too, though most people prefer the half circle method.

Essentially, as long as you are constantly moving during the cast of Twister until you can visibly see the landmines, then you are safe from the mechanic. The hardest part about Twister is not getting tunnel vision. Though, honestly, this shouldn't be happening to anyone aside from potentially the healers (DS -> Twister or Plummet -> Twister can take your mind off avoiding the Twister for a split second) and the PLD in charge of stunning the Dreadknights (has to watch for stun duration on top of watching for the cast of Twister). 2x Melee, or 1x Melee and 1x OT can have a bit of trouble with this as well, though (as the OT back in 2.0/2.1) I would just stand in front of the DK as it spawns so that the Melee could have the back and the flank to themselves. Anyway, point is, Twister is an alright mechanic. It's an instadeath one, but unlike Titan's Landslide, you can be Raise'd if you are hit by a Twister or any other mechanic in the fight. Just don't stack Twisters and you're golden.

Also most people who have the mentality of "Coil is easy" tend to think that it should be easy for everyone else as well. This is why Coil is hard. If you happen to be in a group of 8 people that DO think Coil is easy, much like yourself, then you will find Coil to be easy. If people in your group are struggling in Coil and don't find it as easy, even if you yourself do, then Coil will not be easy no matter how well you play. As an easy example, if you feel like you're the best tank in the world and you pop all your CDs at just the right time, but both of your healers are dead - guess what? Game over. That said, I don't think Ellatrix has this mentality, though since I follow Bokchoy on Twitch I know he's in a competent group and doesn't really have to deal with bads at least in his static.

~Anyway~ I actually think that people are misinterpreting attitudes like Ellatrix's as "toxic", when it's actually the game developers fault for putting us in this situation in the first place. You know what's toxic to the community? Lockouts. They divide us and make any aspect of challenging the new Coil on release depressing and exhausting. Forcing everyone to play with the same 8 people each week, not allowing anyone to repeat the Turns throughout that same week, not able to help anyone, only sticking with their static... it breeds this mentality of NEEDING competent players to progress. I completely skipped Coil2, and not because I wasn't able to beat it (the group I was offered to join beat it fairly quickly and are progressing in FCoB right now), but because having to deal with everything I've mentioned is just way too stressful. I'm tackling Coil2 now, most of my group hasn't even seen guides on T8 or T9, but I am perfectly fine with teaching them and being patient because I'm not forced to be in a rush or forced to exclude them from my static. I can bring in other people to practice if someone is out sick or busy, we can tackle previous turns we've beaten at any time. It feels GREAT to be in a Coil2 static in 2.4 and the fact that I had to wait 6 months for this to be viable is simply dumb. I'm happy for all the people that ended up with a group of 8 people they like, who are competent and good at the game, and who can progress through content on it's release. But for those of us without 7 other competent friends who aren't already committed to a static, it is just hell for us to try and manage even making it past the first Turn of the new Coil.

Basically, without the lockouts, this "toxic" attitude would not exist. People would be willing to help others because they actually can help others. A lot of great players DO help out their friends who are struggling with the previous Coil, but they also have to juggle this on top of raid times and scheduling and all this stressful stuff. It's not the players fault. It's Yoshi-P's. I really REALLY hope that the idea of allowing people who've already cleared X turn to go back and help their friends with it sticks. I hope they do away with lockouts all together or at least find a middle ground. But we'll only know when the expansion arrives and the new raid is released. 'Til then, we have to deal with this or do like I did and wait 6 months for Coil to be open to everyone.

[Taika]

That's a lie. Even through networking (I belong to a raiding LS out of sheer desperation to clear content I cannot otherwise clear), I have not succeeded at T5 or even Moogle Mog EX. Ever. Not one time.

It's very easy to say "Just find a raiding party and go with it," but to actually find one willing to take someone who has never beaten T5 is like finding a needle in a haystack, and starting a raid static is even harder and takes up a lot more time, because you have to actively seek out people who either have not cleared the content you have or will help you clear that content, and very few people are willing to help strangers in an MMO.

I'm on a freaking RP server for twelves' sake!

I'm on the same server as you. What our FC/LS does is we keep track on who needs which wins, for example we currently have a forum thread that lists all members who need wins for each primal. Then one of the people who needs that win (or just someone willing to help) will contact the others who need the same thing done, schedule an event day and time and post it on our forums. Then the rest of open spots (if there are any) are filled with helpers who sign up in the thread. Sometimes a few events are needed for one fight, but for example yesterday we cleared Ramuh ex like this on fourth try. We require members to commit to the events they've signed up for, and come to events prepared, but none of the events are mandatory. We run the newest Coil tier in statics, but for older Coil and other unlocked content everyone is free to organise learning / win events. This has been working very well for us and I recommend similar arrangement for other FCs.

[Snugglebutt]

I always ask if they know anything about the fight before begin on coils, telling them if do not then please let me know (not to vote kick) but so that I will explain how to handle the part you do not know. When they don't listen and fail I will always try repeating describing the tactics a few times then might say like please stop doing something the wrong way followed by listing the tactics again if still failing. I never rage quit or harass or be abusive to people in groups, always give them a huge amount of chances and only once have ever felt the need to vote kick after a dozen times messing up on same thing despite a dozen times politely I explain what to do to avoid making that mistake again.

I tend to go against a vote kick when one pops up if people are just being jerks and not giving the other person a chance to prove they can learn from their mistakes. I have actually explained the entire T5 fight before at the start just in case people haven't done it before. If in a PF I will have in the PF listing 'know the basics by watching video/read guide or done it before' and I never use the 'no soldiery bonus' nonsense in PF's as only ignorant and naive people use that in PF listings...in a partial/full pre-made but not through PF I will ask people to go spend a couple minutes reading a guide on it or watching a video tutorial of it before start when have new people to place. I also say no rage quitter's allowed in PF.

...unfortunately even with all this , I am just one person and there are way too many jerks out there who only care about themselves and care nothing for the betterment of the community. They treat other players as tools not people, stepping on everyone else so that they can stand higher up and abusing systems like the soldiery bonus notification to discriminate and exclude potentially competent players from content simply out of ignorance and lack of compassion. It annoys me that there are so many people like that in game and that new adventurers tend to endure so many bad experiences in game or being insulted by such people.

Yes it can be annoying or frustrating wiping over and over or having to explain a tactic but I like to think about the fact I was new once too, I have made mistakes in runs in the past, forgotten a mechanic and I occasionally have had bad days where it is hard to focus as do most people whether new or old as no-one is perfect...while thinking back I like to think about how nice would of been if people showed more patience, compassion and helped not berated or been condescending towards the new player if I was in that new players position. This is a multiplayer game, not a single player one so looking only out for no.1 (yourself) does more harm than good in multiplayer games, looking out for only no.1 fosters a community which is out to screw each other over in order to reach higher.

[polyhedral]

I'm sorry, but just watching videos isn't experience in field, and people need to understand this.

Telling us to youtube it, while not even practicing ourselves, does very little to gain experience doing it. And besides, do you honestly expect a fresh noob to remember everything in that video while actually playing and paying attention?

That's like saying, go listen to this song on youtube, then play it on the saxophone when you've never even picked up one or know the keys.

Those videos rarely go into detail on job specific roles, only mechanics.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

stuff

It's also bigoted to label Coil as "hard" when difficulty is a completely relative concept.

To be honest, all Twintania requires is mechanic awareness, decent connection, and players able to play their job. That's all. I fail to understand how this is bad, or how people encouraging others to get better is toxic.

TBH Ellatrix is correct, in my opinion. If you believe you are a good player but you are dragged back by the other 7 people, find other people. Connect with them. Become friend with them. Everything will go smooth.
If, instead, YOU are the one failing a lot, then you must either practice more, ask for advice, or simply realize that raiding is not for you. The latter is completely fine, but please do not ask for nerfs for something that is SUPPOSED to be if not hard, at least somewhat challenging.

Remember: easy is boring. It's not a game if you can't lose.

[Snugglebutt]

I'm sorry, but just watching videos isn't experience in field, and people need to understand this.

Telling us to youtube it, while not even practicing ourselves, does very little to gain experience doing it. And besides, do you honestly expect a fresh noob to remember everything in that video while actually playing and paying attention?

That's like saying, go listen to this song on youtube, then play it on the saxophone when you've never even picked up one or know the keys.

Those videos rarely go into detail on job specific roles, only mechanics.

Firstly just a small piece of advice, noob is a term that has negative connotations, is meant more often than not as a form of insult as opposed to newbs which is the non insulting way of describing a new player. Newbs is shorthand for newbie or new player, noobs is the insulting and condescending variation of the phrase which is something you learn if you play enough MMO's or simply understand where the word comes from and how it was originally intended to be used. You might not intend it to be a insult or form of condescension but that just means you lack understanding of the meaning behind it or where it came from.

Know the fight via guides, videos or done it before gives the group a very good baseline to work from and if want to get into the flaws of cleared/item link or achievement players vs new players who read or watched the guides then go read what I had to say about it in another thread yesterday. In this thread from page five onwards. Also keep in mind cleared before or experienced people also forgot mechanics, make mistakes and cause wipes just like a new player who has read a guide or watched a video prior to joining the group. Yes a person who read a guide or watched a video might forget something but so do players who have done it before.

Your metaphorical example is extremely flawed since reading a guide, watching a tutorial video for a dungeon, trial or raid is more akin to teaching the player the keys and the way to play it and nothing like just listening to a song then trying to play it. A good guide or a good video will teach the player the mechanics in a way that explains when a job needs to fill a specific role. It sets up a great baseline for doing it and if fail at a certain stage it only takes a few seconds to explain or remind the person how to handle the part they forgot.

[Shneibel]

Those videos rarely go into detail on job specific roles, only mechanics.

that is the only thing you need to watch anyway, you watch video and see what mechanic suit for your roll and ned to pay attention to. Do you really expect to watch a video that tell exactly that & this min and sec you on this job can do this & that ? really ?

[MeiUshu]

@Remilla, how can you practice if people keep kicking you if you fail because you miss experience that you cant acquire since nobody let you acquire it since for those you are just a jerk stupid idiot that cant learn, learning that you cant do since you can never practice up to the end???

seems a strange concept to me......for that reason, for me personally, I prefer by far DF, I will repeat over and over again the same thing, until is anchored in my mind, after that, is a question of finding or rather getting the right party...and it goes through..can take several weeks/ months / attempts to finish a given thing. I am not busy, I have time, patience. I know that nothing ever is insta.

Besides, in a group, is not always you the problem there are other people with you....not sure why is such a hard concept.

Mei

[Nuinn]

Points of no return or, in other words, one-shot mechanics (you know, the ones you can't recover after) is where SE messed up. They're overused and a cheap solution to making fights/content longer. Especially when those happen 5-10 min into the fight, having you repeat a very easy faceroll "intro". These become especially deadly with the servers being as wonky as they are.

[Kiara1]

One thing that i've noticed is that people are nicer if new ppl ask for strat in say ST
but most people don't ending up wiping the entire group.

And then people will be mad, cause if they had asked they could've avoided wiping it