Dragoon, under the shadow of Ninja

[Zophar]

take a monk and a DRG, with equal gear and equal skill at their job, and the winner will always be monk.



On the other hand, you win hands down every AoE situation over a NIN with your DRG. Every job has its advantages.

That same exact reasoning was used back in the day to compare blm to smn. We see how that turned out.

[Exstal]

That is really a gross overstatement. Ninja's potency is to balance it against Monk's flat damage increases from Fists of Fire, Twin Snakes, and Greased Lightning, on top of the debuff from Dragon Kick. Ninja has lower TP cost because they get the Speed Bonus from Huton.

Don't forget to mention that Greased Lightning actually gives a damage boost, whereas fuuton (I really hate that they spelled it huton..wtf were the translators doing?) does not.

[Atreides]

Simple put.

NIN uses DRG potency GCDs, with MNK TP Cost, then has GL3 on top.

Basically, NIN is overpowered, no matter how you look at it really.

DRG really needs Heavy Thrusts potency increasing to maybe 20-25%, then it'd be able to equalise the other DPS.

Also 150 magic defense we're missing would be great too.

Like already mentioned before this is a big overstatement.
Yes we do more damage than dragoons but so do monks and a good monk still does more damage than a Ninja.
I do agree that Dragoons deserve a buff but Ninja are far from overpowered.
So right now Dragoons are in the shadow of the other two melees, this I agree with.

[ViviAnimus]

Like already mentioned before this is a big overstatement.
Yes we do more damage than dragoons but so do monks and a good monk still does more damage than a Ninja.
I do agree that Dragoons deserve a buff but Ninja are far from overpowered.
So right now Dragoons are in the shadow of the other two melees, this I agree with.

Yes, pretty much this

[Ihm]

Like already mentioned before this is a big overstatement.
Yes we do more damage than dragoons but so do monks and a good monk still does more damage than a Ninja.
I do agree that Dragoons deserve a buff but Ninja are far from overpowered.
So right now Dragoons are in the shadow of the other two melees, this I agree with.

NIN can deal more damage than MNK by quite an amount. If you put an equally geared and skilled NIN vs a MNK and do that thing we don't like to talk about, the NIN will win. Assuming they're both equally skilled, we're not talking random guy a against random guy b here, and we're not talking someone else keeping their buffs up for them.

It's not an overstatement at all, it's an exact assessment... Are you saying they dont have the potency of DRG, the TP requirements of MNK, and access to essentially GL3?

I won't quote actual numbers that people pull on the jobs because of the magical hammer that the GMs drop.

[dday3six]

NIN can deal more damage than MNK by quite an amount. If you put an equally geared and skilled NIN vs a MNK and do that thing we don't like to talk about, the NIN will win. Assuming they're both equally skilled, we're not talking random guy a against random guy b here, and we're not talking someone else keeping their buffs up for them.

It's not an overstatement at all, it's an exact assessment... Are you saying they dont have the potency of DRG, the TP requirements of MNK, and access to essentially GL3?

I won't quote actual numbers that people pull on the jobs because of the magical hammer that the GMs drop.

Show me the Ninja who can do that. Cause it's close, but Monk still edges out Ninja.

Greased Lightning III gives a 27% damage buff. Twin Snakes is 10% and Fists of Fire 5%. 42% total. If you add up those increases it's roughly equal to the potency of Ninja's attack with their 20% increase from Venom.

Monk also gets GL for simply going through their rotation. Ninja must do a 4 press combo which deals no damage by it's self. Even if a player is blisteringly fast with Ninjustu it's still going to take 2 seconds minimum, which is basically giving up an attack every 60-70s.

Finally note that while the first to attacks in both Ninja and Dragoon's main combo are 150 and 200 potency respectively. Aeolian Edge is 320, while Full Thrust is 330. That 10 potency difference is important to note, particularly went Dragoon will do their main combo more often in a proper rotation as compared to Ninja.

[Ihm]

*snips*

Not gonna link any videos sorry, any videos proving it have 3rd party tools in and I don't want the ban hammer

And are you really arguing the exact semantics of what I said? Maybe I should rephrase it to "near" DRG potency. Didn't think someone would actually think I meant exactly the same potency considering DRG has 2 3-hit combos and 2 single hits which all use unique actions unlike ninja.

The reason most groups are going with double MNK is that one can deal with the blunt resistance while another one can go full damage. They'd probably do double NIN but most people still aren't as confident in playing NIN as efficiently and effectively as they are with MNK, and since double MNK can do all of FCoB with two MNKs so learning to double NIN isn't really required.

[dday3six]

Not gonna link any videos sorry, any videos proving it have 3rd party tools in and I don't want the ban hammer

And are you really arguing the exact semantics of what I said? Maybe I should rephrase it to "near" DRG potency. Didn't think someone would actually think I meant exactly the same potency considering DRG has 2 3-hit combos and 2 single hits which all use unique actions unlike ninja.

So believe what I say. I have proof, I'm just unable to show you? Sure...

It's not about semantics. It about the numbers being more than just their numerical base value. This is a point you have candidly ignored the whole time.

[Ihm]

So believe what I say. I have proof, I'm just unable to show you? Sure...

It's not about semantics. It about the numbers being more than just their numerical base value. This is a point you have candidly ignored the whole time.

You have youtube, search for ninja dps... it's not hard to find.

Ninja has access to high potency attacks and low tp requirements. The fact their may be a small difference between the exact values doesn't change the fact that they use high potency hits like dragoon does. You're arguing that Ninja and Dragoon attacks aren't the same, you're arguing semantics.

[RiceisNice]

Monk also gets GL for simply going through their rotation. Ninja must do a 4 press combo which deals no damage by it's self. Even if a player is blisteringly fast with Ninjustu it's still going to take 2 seconds minimum, which is basically giving up an attack every 60-70s.

Just to add onto this, ninjitsu and mudras are off GCD. No decent ninja would ever stack skill speed and Fuuton would reduce their skill cooldown to around 2.10 seconds. This 2 second spent performing Ninjitsu becomes negligible when done inbetween GCDs, especially with the ninjitsu itself is also off GCD.

Also someone posted a T8 parser a while back
http://i.imgur.com/BIidOwk.png
Take what you from that, it's only one fight parser I've seen to compare the two, but they were both at equal gear AFAIK.

And lastly, ninjas do not gobble up their TP to the same extent as monk; they'd never run out unless they were trying to (by going off their normal rotations) or spamming AoEs.. Only two of Ninja's non-AoE attacks cost more than 50 TP, and they're DoTs. Monks have at least three 60 TP attacks, two of them being required in their typical rotation. Might not sound much, but it does add up in the end.