Let Players Speed Run Again

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Here's why this is a bad idea: (brace yourself, I'll be editing this to exceed the character limit)

From a healer's perspective - Nothing is more boring to me than when a tank just pulls everything then I'm pretty much auto-pilot healing repeatedly for the next minute or so while everyone else spams AoEs ad-nauseum. Plus, you know, if I'm not stuck healing constantly, I CAN help fight. . .

From a DPS perspective - I'll never forget the thread here where someone was basically unable to run Brayflox HM, or get a party, OR got kicked out of parties at the start. . . just because he was a Dragoon. Sure, I'm aware some classes shine in certain situations, but the speed running epidemic had gotten SO out of hand that if you weren't running Bray HM with a BRD/BLM combo, you weren't running it. That's an absolute foul, no matter how time efficient it is. ALSO, purely from a Bard perspective, spamming Wide Volley is rather inefficient of TP usage, especially for the overall damage it does. That could be debated by several factors (gear, specs, etc.) but the primary point is once you run out of TP, then what? Goad and Paeon aren't instant refreshes, and Invigorate only goes so far. Once you're out, DPS slows down. And if you're trying to speed run, isn't that just counter-productive?

Now, from a tank's perspective, here's where I really have a lot of controversial things to say. First, and let me just throw it out there, mass pulls are a bad habit to form. Sure, if you can do it and handle it, great, but a lot of people simply can't. There's no reason for an i100+ tank to be dying to the first 3 combined mobs of Snowcloak, except to say bad, old habits. Yes, I can say that they ARE tougher, and do hit harder now (thus discouraging such tactics), but plain and simple, this isn't Brayflox HM. This isn't i90 somethings trying to reach 100 and up. Arguably, this isn't the same game anymore. The bar got raised after your item levels did. It's time for new tactics. It's time to BE tanks, not damage sponges while your party cleans up the mess you make.

Yes, I'm being a little mean about it, but the fact remains that speed running encouraged some very bad habits to be formed. Habits that might be hard to break, but worse, simply gimp the tank and by effect, the party. Oh, everyone shares the blame too, not just tanks. Anyone thinking that Wide Volley/Flare/Shadow Flare/Ring of Thorns/Death Blossom/Medica 2/Succor are the end-all of effective dungeon tactics, well, simply isn't doing it right. Sure, maybe it worked for a time as the quick, easy way. But think about it: You're all at higher item levels now. There needs to be SOME kind of challenge, or dungeons really would be boring. Don't miss the trees for the forest.

On that note, from a developer/artist's perspective (no, I'm not a dev, but I will play devil's advocate) - If I put work into creating a dungeon, then I would naturally do more than just focus on enemy encounters. I want you to experience it and enjoy it, admire it, appreciate it for its entirety. Not simply speed run it, get what you want, and never even pay attention to the work I put into it. Or perhaps should I just go the 1.0 route and copy-paste the same backdrop? Why not just create a "white room" and fill it with enemies that are all paper tigers, ready to be herded and killed? I'll tell you why: because THAT is boring. That won't sell my game. Unless by chance that is somehow part of the artistic vision, that's simply bland. Imagine Wanderer's Palace without the other parties exploring it, or the Tonberry Stalkers. Imagine Tam Tara HM without the creepy setup or the cryptic notes Edda left behind. If not for the mummies, can you say Qarn HM's final boss is all that challenging?

I get it: You at least want the option to speed run dungeons. Forced stops and high falls impede overall completion time, yes. But bear in mind, not only did speed runs foster bad habits and exclusionary practices among the community, it was the wake up call to the devs: it's getting too easy. The bar had to be raised. There needed to be more of a challenge. Without it, there would be no point to better gear or even newer "hard mode" dungeons. To trade time (reasonably) for challenge seems like a small and practical sacrifice. Some may not like it (and to that effect, I'd suggest adding some harder Guildhests with better rewards, but that's just me), but it's overall healthy for the dungeon running crowd. We had it too easy too long, and now even our gear simply outclasses any original challenges (I don't even get knocked back against the Demon Wall now). The bar had to be raised. Speed runs (for now) are a thing of the past.

[TheWaywardWind]

It's time for new tactics. It's time to BE tanks, not damage sponges while your party cleans up the mess you make.

This, quite honestly. I'm not gonna lie, 90% of the time when running through dungeons, I want a speed run. However, as someone who mains WHM, the constant weight of needing to keep up with tanks that pull half the dungeon and then tap their foot expectantly while they take 2k damage to the face a second is obnoxious. I'm always able to keep up, but then they move to do it again and I have no MP by the second go. SoS and vials don't help, either.

I don't think that whenever SE develops a dungeon their first objective in mind is, "How can we make them run this as quickly as possible?" and in fact, speed runs are a the problem in of itself.If dungeons weren't so easy, they wouldn't be so "boring" to complete. If they weren't so boring to complete, then people wouldn't feel the desire to speed run, they'd want to enjoy their time spent in the dungeon (especially if you're waiting hours on end in queue). If they did this, speed runs wouldn't exist. Essentially, speed runs are more of a solution to a problem that they cause themselves. People go, "Oh god, why is running this so boring?" when all they're doing is forcing themselves through the content as quickly as possible. So they speedrun it and make it even MORE boring for themselves.

It's a vicious cycle, but the only way to break it is to make dungeons either slower, more interesting to complete, or just generally give better rewards for more full completion.

[Noahlimits]

Here's why this is a bad idea: (brace yourself, I'll be editing this to exceed the character limit)

From a healer's perspective - Nothing is more boring to me than when a tank just pulls everything then I'm pretty much auto-pilot healing repeatedly for the next minute or so while everyone else spams AoEs ad-nauseum. Plus, you know, if I'm not stuck healing constantly, I CAN help fight. . .

If you aren't DPSing as a healer even if your tank pulls the whole dungeon you're not doing something right. You should always be able to dps and heal regardless of the pull size if even moderately geared. That's what being a good healer is.

[technole]

If you aren't DPSing as a healer even if your tank pulls the whole dungeon you're not doing something right. You should always be able to dps and heal regardless of the pull size if even moderately geared.

Agreed. I don't care if it's just shadow flare and throwing a few DoTs on as SCH, or WHM tossing on the DS>Regen, then Swiftcast>Holy. Still plenty of room to squeeze some damage in, and I still think many WHMs forget that Holy does stun which can help the tank take less damage.

[Zedd702]

If you aren't DPSing as a healer even if your tank pulls the whole dungeon you're not doing something right. You should always be able to dps and heal regardless of the pull size if even moderately geared.

Not entirely true...

Agreed. I don't care if it's just shadow flare and throwing a few DoTs on as SCH, or WHM tossing on the DS>Regen, then Swiftcast>Holy. Still plenty of room to squeeze some damage in, and I still think many WHMs forget that Holy does stun which can help the tank take less damage.

Again, not entirely true...

And here's why: You both fail to even look at the possibilities of the tank and his/her gear in question, before assuming the healer is not doing something right. I've been in this situation when I cast SC and shadowflare and before my heal could hit the tank he was dead.

Also regarding Holy, even with Swiftcast, start up on this power lags and by then the tank and healer can take quite a lot of damage before the stun takes effect. Not saying it's impossible, but it's more situational, than it is as black & white as the two of you put it...

[Noahlimits]

Not entirely true...

Maybe this is a case of 'git gud'? I've done countless expert roulettes with tanks that were no higher than i95-100, and as long as they do some semblance of a cooldown rotation it's easy peazy.

First big pull:

-SS+Eye for an eye before first pull
-Cleric Stance
-Pre enable swift cast
-Holy x 3
-Benediction
-Holy x 3

And by that point the pull should be dead. On future pulls when you don't have bene, that's when you weave in divine seal and regen.

Obviously if you have a i95 tank who uses 0 cooldowns you won't be able to keep them up. But those tanks wouldn't want to do speed runs in the first place. Tanks who aren't geared in 99% of cases won't be experienced or willing to do speed runs. So your second point is moot.

[Zedd702]

Hot air

Of course you'd get upset when someone calls you out on a valid point... I actually expected that. Perhaps you should read your post again... "no higher than 90-100 ilvl" what dungeon do you know, outside of primals and coils has this high of a requirement? Know what you're talking about before you come at me like that. And AGAIN, you quote a distinct situation where you can DPS. Hence the word situational...

So put some salt, pepper and paprika and whatever other seasoning you prefer on your "git good" and eat those words.

The rest of your post you should have probably just deleted, because you pretty much typed nonsense...

[Noahlimits]

Of course you'd get upset when someone calls you out on a valid point... I actually expected that. Perhaps you should read your post again... "no higher than 90-100 ilvl" what dungeon do you know, outside of primals and coils has this high of a requirement? Know what you're talking about before you come at me like that. So put some salt, pepper and paprika and whatever other seasoning you prefer on your "git good" and eat those words.

The rest of your post you should have probably just deleted, because you pretty much typed nonsense...

What expert dungeon do you know has tanks trying to speed run or pull big groups that aren't at least i90? If your tank is below that and trying to speed run any new dungeon, he's terrible and expecting his healer to carry him.

Your only point was basically "what if your tank sucks / is undergeared and does big pulls anyways?". Simple, let them die. I also like how a proper rotation and statements of badly geared / bad tanks attempting to do speed runs being bad is "hot air".

As far as "knowing what I'm talking about", I'm a i130 WHM with t13 on farm. I'd say that adds to my credibility a lot more than anything you can say. "Git Gud" if you think that healers shouldn't dps in almost any and every dungeon situation.

[Ellatrix]

Also regarding Holy, even with Swiftcast, start up on this power lags and by then the tank and healer can take quite a lot of damage before the stun takes effect. Not saying it's impossible, but it's more situational, than it is as black & white as the two of you put it...

False, you can force the stun to take effect immediately if you know what you're doing.

[Zedd702]

False, you can force the stun to take effect immediately if you know what you're doing.

Ellatrix, Don't start with me. You already know you and I, hell you and the world even, rarely see eye to eye on anything...

Back to the Coils with ye...