Let Players Speed Run Again

[Nel_Celestine]

I don't understand how tanks would have trouble keeping hate, or how holding hate in a dungeon is any more or less difficult outside of dungeons.

You have to be woefully under ilvl compared to DPS or just plain bad to struggle with enmity. Tanks have generous enmity generation skills.

because pulling hate back off mobs that get flared over and over and over again when you are trying to hold 10-15 of them. Sure, WAR maybe, but PLD? Flash can only do so much.

Why would you not want to go faster? For what reason? Do you not have other things going on in your life that you'd like to do?

going fast is one thing. Speed running is another. Speed running equates to booting anything that isn't optimal set up, ignoring EVERYTHING and just GOGOGO SPAMSPAMSPAM! If anything, speed running burnt me out on the game more than just running at a normal pace. 3~4 extra minutes is NOT going to make or break you.

[Ellatrix]

because pulling hate back off mobs that get flared over and over and over again when you are trying to hold 10-15 of them. Sure, WAR maybe, but PLD? Flash can only do so much.

They buffed flash. Holding aoe threat on either job is as easy as mashing a single button.

[BobbinT]

because pulling hate back off mobs that get flared over and over and over again when you are trying to hold 10-15 of them. Sure, WAR maybe, but PLD? Flash can only do so much.

I tanked dungeons as PLD way alot more than WAR for SR. If you only think Flash is the only AOE enmity generate, then you are dead wrong and playing it wrong.

And if tank dead so fast, either they forgot or haven't mastered using their buffs yet. PLD does have 4 defense skill buff you know.

[SpookyGhost]

I really don't understand half the posts in this thread.

Like, I get wanting to enjoy a dungeon... the first time. And if you had some variety, like 10+ dungeons, to queue for then I'd totally be behind taking things slow and steady. There are some dungeons where trash doesn't just stand there and smack you with autoattacks and a random AOE cleave until you kill it (Pharos Sirius, Lost City), but that's pretty much all it does in the other dungeons. The head + hands in Qarn HM really are more of the same, in fact the AOE that holds the person doesn't even hit hard so it's a completely useless trash mechanic - if there were any sense of danger there it'd be alright, but there isn't so it's just more trash. The snakes can petrify you which is, again, another minor inconvenience if you happen to not LoS it/Silence it/etc. Basically, I don't understand the fun of going one trash pack at a time. Weeeeee it's... the same mob I've killed 20 times before! I wonder if he'll do exactly what he did those other 20 times?! Oh, he did! Whooooah!

I just don't get it. Reading some of these posts genuinely made my head hurt. Do people expect new things to come from 4 man dungeons we've done ad nauseam? Why would you not want to go faster? For what reason? Do you not have other things going on in your life that you'd like to do? Do you set aside 2 hours for your expert roulette that day? Why not get it done as fast as possible and then move on with your life? I really am trying my hardest to wrap my head around why anyone would want to take their time in a 4 man dungeon they've done 10 times before. I would love for someone to explain it, because it is genuinely boggling my mind.

[Kiara]

I just don't get it. Reading some of these posts genuinely made my head hurt. Do people expect new things to come from 4 man dungeons we've done ad nauseam? Why would you not want to go faster? For what reason? Do you not have other things going on in your life that you'd like to do? Do you set aside 2 hours for your expert roulette that day? Why not get it done as fast as possible and then move on with your life? I really am trying my hardest to wrap my head around why anyone would want to take their time in a 4 man dungeon they've done 10 times before. I would love for someone to explain it, because it is genuinely boggling my mind.

Hi Spooky,

I agree that there's nothing "new" the 10th time you've run a dungeon compared to the 2nd time (1st time has that awe/wow factor, etc.).

But by your line of questioning, EVERYTHING in this game is the same the 10th time as the 2nd time. Gathering (the same 4 boring chops per tree), FATEs (you kill a bunch of mobs, mindless), Coil, Primals (look, it's Landslide again, Weight of the Land, etc.).

"Yes," it's not that engaging, but by your reasoning the ultimate distillation of your feelings is:

* To give you a Button that with a Single Click will give you a "REWARD". Done.

Why play the game? Going through any of the Primals for the Hundredth Time isn't any more engaging than before. It's boring and mindless.

That being said, I made a point earlier in this thread that part of the problem is the fundamentally boring Combat System. Yoshi P removed the idea of Party Combos (stuff like Skillchains (Renkei) and Battle Regimens (1.0), which added an *engaging* Meta / Iterant Gameplay System, that would keep even the most basic Battle (from in the open world, in a dungeon, in Primal fights, to Coil, etc.) dynamic and interesting. Figuring out what Party Combos / Skillchains to mix and match with players in any fight. It wouldn't solve everything, but it helps a great deal.

BTW, I'm not saying I like the Dungeons the way they are either. They are very linear, predictable, filled with trash mobs, and don't offer much in terms of rewards. There should be a better solution.

Asking for Speed Runs is only a bandaid on a much deeper issue.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The larger point she was making there, one of the same points I originally made, is that speedrunning - as so many are used to doing it - has neither taught nor encouraged effective use of class/job skills or good habits.

[SpookyGhost]

My problem isn't really with single target encounters, boss fights in 4mans are perfectly fine as is - in fact, I think the 2nd bosses in all of the new dungeons are great. Even doing these as quick as possible requires mastery of your job or at least your rotation, so there is no real problem with repetitively doing Primals/Coil/etc. However, trash is trash - in pre-50 dungeons it mattered more since it gave you exp, so skipping stuff wasn't really beneficial to you. At 50 you have no reason to bother with trash, so burning it down and getting through it as fast as possible to get to the boss that actually requires at least a little bit of concentration is optimal. Slow or fast, it's going to be the same trash with the same auto attacks and random melee AOE cleaves/circles. While I agree that the combat is fundamentally boring, I don't think this has any effect on trash in dungeons. Even with the most unique skills, you'd still just be burning trash. If they gave trash any sort of meaningful mechanics, like the bees in pre-nerf Qarn, then i'd be fine with how the dungeons are gated to stop speedrunning, but as it is right now there might as well be a path straight to the boss with buttons you have to press along the way to open doors that are just in the way.

[Krr]

Forced stops are honestly grating and boring design. The trash in endgame dungeons don't do a damn interesting thing and is somehow less of a threat than the trash in midgame dungeons.

That said, I don't feel that speedruns are either a problem or a solution. They are a symptom of bland dungeon trash design. I actually enjoy most of the boss fights but I can only think of a few pieces of dungeon trash that actually interest me endgame, and many of them are no longer relevant.

If S-E wants to stop speedrunners they should actually make the trash and environments threatening and interesting enough to A) not be speedrunnable in the latest patch in most cases, and B) Not bore players to death fighting them.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Trash mobs are never going to be interesting. They're called trash for a reason; to slow you down and be simple and quick to fight so that you got something to do in between boss fights. "Interesting" trash mobs are the boss encounters.

[Hayward]

If anything, I hope the devs add more Zelda-esque mechanics to current and future dungeons and maybe institute a star rating system like FFXIII that rates our participation in the dungeon rather than the speed in which we complete them.

Some mechanics that I'd be happy to see:
*Puzzle rooms (think Forest Temple in Ocarina of Time) that yield special rewards (Alexandrites, Treasure maps, etc.)
*Story rooms (Ramuh's test in FFIX). Reward: 3- or 4-star crafting items for each player
*Security codes for doors (Castle Oztroja in FFXI) that require reading slips of paper left on the ground and change for each instance.