DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

[ChaozK]

We can already spam RoT/Doom Spike constantly with Invigorate use longer than most other DPS can sustain AoE damage.

Thats not true at all. BRD, WAR, NIN and MNK all can sustain their AoE longer than DRG, assuming you are dealing max dmg with doomspike spam (lolRoT).

Its basically DRG>BRD>WAR>NIN>MNK when it comes to AoE costs (which is fair because thats also somewhat how the AOE dps ranks).

[Lux_Rayna]

Its all situational. Dummy tests are garbage and always have been. Boss fights arent dummies so theres no practical relation at all.

Show me several parses from several different encounters all indicating that DRG is noticeably inferior to Mnk/Nin. My only requirements are reasonable cause to believe players are of similar gear and skill levels.

In fact, parses from an FC raid static would fulfill that requirement. I just need some from all ex primals as well as all coil turns. A few samples of each will do. Dont worry ill wait.

[LucentLagombi]

I don't understand why people are shouting for a M DEF buff for dragoon. It doesn't help our dps at all. Maybe if we get cleaved or some kind of magic attack hits us during a jump we get 10-30% less damage dealt but how does that help in terms of dps? It doesn't seem like it would be a viable solution for survival either since we're not tanks. Also in the case of AOEs we do receive healing from our healers, so how does MDEF make the job that much better?

Get to t11, get hit with the fireball, tell me drg doesn't need an mdef buff.

[Fayto]

First off: DRG is the easiest job to play IMO

No, it is the hardest of the three melee DPS. Monk and Ninja are tons easier than Dragoon. Also, Dragoons can't come close to us Monks unless we're bad and they play perfectly. Also that is the thing, Dragoon doesn't get rewarded for perfect play. Ninja and Monk gets their power for free, Dragoon has to work for it and still don't deal near DPS.

[RyuDragnier]

No, it is the hardest of the three melee DPS. Monk and Ninja are tons easier than Dragoon. Also, Dragoons can't come close to us Monks unless we're bad and they play perfectly. Also that is the thing, Dragoon doesn't get rewarded for perfect play. Ninja and Monk gets their power for free, Dragoon has to work for it and still don't deal near DPS.

You're dead wrong, Ninja is the hardest. I can say that after getting to level 46, where all the Ninjutsu skills are fully open and the last real attack on GCD is added. You have 3 different attack combos, one of which being a DoT, one being a slashing defense debuff (and healing potency drop), and the last being straight up damage. Add into that Ninjutsu, of which you have a total of 6 different skills and 1 of which must always be up in order to help maximize DPS (and thus have to reuse every 3rd Ninjutsu usage). Ninjutsu in general is always off GCD so it's going to be used between moves every 20s, sometimes the command lasting long enough to where you could have gotten another GCD move in (but you can't, since it messes up the Ninjutsu). So that's 3 GCD combos and 6 off GCD usable moves, almost all of which are useful (2 sadly get outclassed easily). Try pulling out the correct combinations for maximum DPS without a guide, it's going to get ridiculously hard (plus Ninjutsu is easily messed up on).

Compare that to the 2 damage combo rotations for DRG, and you're telling me DRG is the hardest? You're delusional. MNK would be easiest, DRG middle ground, NIN hardest. That's from me having leveled all 3 of the classes, one of which I main (MNK).

[Fayto]

snip

Ninja is really easy, people are trying to make it seem harder than it is. I've played Ninja in multiple content, coil, st, etc. Far easier than Dragoon. If you have a Warrior, you'll never use Dancing Edge. On top of which their rotation is extremely similar to Monk's. Only thing that is hard on Ninja is Mudra due to server latency, but other then that really easy.

Actually Ninja's Dancing Edge is easier than Monk as if a second Monk uses Dragon Kick you have to tell yourself not to use it but with Ninja you wont and just use Aeolian Edge.

[RyuDragnier]

Ninja is really easy, people are trying to make it seem harder than it is. I've played Ninja in multiple content, coil, st, etc. Far easier than Dragoon. If you have a Warrior, you'll never use Dancing Edge. On top of which their rotation is extremely similar to Monk's. Only thing that is hard on Ninja is Mudra due to server latency, but other then that really easy.

Actually Ninja's Dancing Edge is easier than Monk as if a second Monk uses Dragon Kick you have to tell yourself not to use it but with Ninja you wont and just use Aeolian Edge.

You can have a combo within a combo, within a combo. In the middle of any GCD combo, you can Ninjutsu combo to Suiton, then immediately use Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, and then finish the first combo. Anything that disturbs the Ninjutsu combo on your end can instantly destroy that combo, putting it on cooldown for 20s if you don't have the last NIN move (I don't have it yet, don't know what it's caused) or have already used it to reset the combo. This can stop you from putting on Huton (15% attack speed boost), Suiton to allow you to use both Sneak and Trick Attacks outside of battle, or Doton if you need a damage AoE field. That's at least 20s without your DPS being up to par, compared to maybe 3-6 seconds on DRG if you miss the rear attack on Impulse Drive or Heavy Thrust.

So again, NIN is currently the hardest melee DPS, not DRG.

[beowulf81]

You can have a combo within a combo, within a combo. In the middle of any GCD combo, you can Ninjutsu combo to Suiton, then immediatelyuse Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, and then finish the first combo. Anything that disturbs the Ninjutsu combo on your end can instantly destroy that combo, putting it on cooldown for 20s if you don't have the last NIN move (I don't have it yet, don't know what it's caused) or have already used it to reset the combo. This can stop you from putting on Huton (15% attack speed boost), Suiton to allow you to use both Sneak and Trick Attacks outside of battle, or Doton if you need a damage AoE field. That's at least 20s without your DPS being up to par, compared to maybe 3-6 seconds on DRG if you miss the rear attack on Impulse Drive or Heavy Thrust.

So again, NIN is currently the hardest melee DPS, not DRG.

No. Ninja may have more demanding input requirements (i.e. multiple ones) but execution and number of buttons to push is not what makes a role difficult, not at endgame. The assumption here is that the player is actually half decent and has his rotation down perfectly, and that is not an unfair assumption to make.

Your issues are with execution and actually pressing buttons. That does not make Ninja harder as a dps class than dragoon at endgame. your dps output is down to you; yes, lag can screw your mudras, especially if you're mashing buttons with your eyes closed, but the same is true with rollback on HT or impulse drive. Ninja has no positional requirements. It is not punished anywhere near as harshly as Dragoon for a missed attack. The cost per mistake for a dragoon is extortionate, much higher than it is for a monk or a ninja; that mistake may result from something that is beyond your ability to control, given the positional dependancy that dragoons have. And of course, the dps ceiling for dragoons is far lower than ninjas and monks.

That means that even if you hit everything perfectly, hitting every positional, you will still do less damage than a ninja who messed up his rotations a few times. if you miss a positional, your dps will plummet, by a greater amount than the same mistake would cost a monk. Positionals do not matter for a ninja. It is entirely possible for you to play perfectly as a dragoon only making one mistake, and end up not doing nearly as much damage as a monk or a ninja who screwed up his rotation a half dozen times. That makes having a mediocre monk/ninja better for a static than having a very good dragoon. There is no reward for the extra risk that rolling a dragoon entails. None.

When you evaluate performance of DPS'ers at endgame, its based on one thing; how much damage they were able to do. It is harder for a dragoon to do respectable damage then it is for any other class; they are punished far more harshly for mistakes, their optimal dps ceiling is low, they have the lowest survivability at endgame, high reliance on b4b and moves that lock you in place… all those add up to the worst dps class for endgame.

[Fayto]

snip

This guy gets it. Monk or Ninja messes up? Slight DPS decrease. Dragoon messes up? Their attacks don't work. Again, Dragoons are not rewarded enough for perfect play despite being harder than Monk or Ninja where as they get free power.

[Sentinillia]

You mean the ONE T13 clear? FFS... Don't really want to read back through the first few pages but either this thread or one of the others had a DRG who cleared T10-11 and his group was close to T12. Again most of us could give two craps about min/maxers who want to steamroll all the content in a week...for the general raiding population there is no problem with DRG.

I don't know where you're getting your info from but there have been more than one t13 kill. (I'm on t12 as a Dragoon. I know a Dragoon who has killed t12. That doesn't mean there aren't better options.)

Even you minority min/maxers can't execute PERFECT combos in every encounter. There will always be mechanics that push you out of range or put you in positions where your positionals are impossible for a few seconds or more (Try managing Disembowel/CT against Kraken in Sastasha HM. You have to bounce to the tentacles to put it on Kraken). In combat right now I'm not witnessing that big a gap between me and the other melee DPS. I could give two shits what numbers against a dummy say.

Sastasha HM hardly is a good example of a dungeon where DPS would make a difference in the first place.
If a mechanic forces out out of position and you adapt and make the most of your DPS while handling the mechanics, that can be considered a perfect rotation for said encounter.
But even in this situation DRG gets shafted the most, MNK can live with not hitting the boss for a couple of seconds and still be able to retain their GL stacks and their DPS won't suffer further than the actual disconnect from the boss. DRG rotations however are stricter. In a situation where disconnects happen, disembowel and heavy thrust timers will get messed up and you will lose a couple hits worth of HT and Dis every time.
Sure, MNK may lose Dragon kick and Twin snakes, but they account for a smaller chunk of their DPS than HT and Dis do for DRG.

Again, we're working our way back to the issue of being punished too much for messing up your rotation even once without any real incentive for excellent play to balance it out.