[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[Razard]

TL;DR

You obviously missed the facetious nature of my post. Akiza is rather notorious around these parts, for going on and on and on about this particular subject.

I was just suggesting that maybe she would be happier seeking an MMO that has a class more to her liking, rather than annoy people by bringing up her opinions at any opportunity for over a year when the Devs have made it clear that it's not changing it. As the old saying goes. "Hope in one hand, poop in another. See which fills up first."

[Deliciou5]

Also, not my opinion about religion, my opinion was about intelligent design as science. it is not by all measures. I don't like misinformation. The idea that there is even a debate on climate change is laughable but it happens because of people deliberately misinforming people.... but again, digression

No, i wouldn't get my enjoyment ruined by teleportation being involved

People used to queues for dungeons as tanks then switch to DPS to get around the queues, registering for a duty without a max level pet is certainly something that can happen especially if pet progression is uncoupled from class progression. but it is just another part to balance making sure summoners aren't too weak with an ungrinded pet that they cannot function, or too strong with a maxed out pet that no other class is desired for content. I'm sure this idea could be implemented, but it seems like it would be clunky. I do not want to see specializing in a pet either as that is another way to exclude unoptimal setups from progression. Referring to the community back when the game was fresh 2.0 BLMs were in high demand for speedruns and in 0 demand for progression content and were unable to find a group. it was almost comical seeing the demand for players to switch back and forth between those two classes if someone primaried BLM, the reverse was not the case (primary summoners did not get pressured to switch to BLM for speedrun content).

Now to the less fun part - your postings about wanting something the developers have constantly said no to is, by her/his (I can never tell over the internet) context, the draw for her remarks. You seem to also have the same attitude towards balance as Akiza (correct me if i'm wrong), 'let the developers work it out.' So I would again say your analogy is inaccurate because developers have already ruled on some of the issues you're raising and you do not want to abide by it. Merits of that one way or another aside, that's the opposition you're getting.

I have brought up a multitude of examples as to how a pet is problematic, but go ahead and ignore those too. Pet progression is problematic as it becomes more and more a part of the character's effectiveness - I have explained this in several different ways using several different examples that I don't wanna retype.


BTW, great strawman - completely ignored the idea for the fun little story i wanted to type. AI vs AI removes the player from the game unless the character is directly controlling that AI. Then the person is playing an extra character, or being a healer/support to their pet (healers can put out some damage sometimes). two problems come up. first, the AI would need to be very responsive, have queuing commands and be able to be quickly and easily micromanaged to keep it effective if it is a large portion of the character's damage as you have suggested. While you have suggested some ways around that, the responsiveness is not there in the current system required for this sort of play (this is where experience micromanaging your pet would have been handy as you would know how long it takes for a pet to execute a commanded action such as whispering dawn or contagion). As someone who isn't very far in the endgame myself, every second counts when doing progression content. The only way to fix that would be to have the pet be like it is now just with more attack power because most of its damage comes from repeated abilities rather than cooldowns. Endgame pets doing 200+ dps while the summoner and scholar are racing each other to see who can out damage the other. Summoner becomes the easiest class to do well in and would be rather boring IMO

i'm leaving the 2nd problem off because i'm tired of this tonight.

EDIT: Actually the Item level thing you said was your idea was actually how the system works now... unless you wanted some different progression

I do not address every single point because the points you sometimes had made were more statements than explanations. You keep saying stuff like. WELL EVERYONE KNOWS HOW MMO'S DO THINGS A CERTAIN WAY ITS SO OBVIOUS!

Just like you...if i addressed every single point or assumption people made i would be here all night, and i am also tired.
You honestly think something like "Its too much work,effort,something might fail,not worth the effort." are anything more than just simple opinions? Who cares what the developers current stance on the issues is. I am talking about ideas for future updates not explanations of why they didn't have enough time while rehauling the entire game on a time limit that they couldn't do anything more than the bare minimum for almost everything while still be accepted by the player base.

Like when they decided FFXIV needed a overhaul due to their failing project, for similar motivations of profit they will overhaul or use some gimmick or idea in the future like adding primals in or making a class everyone was clamoring for(FFXI:blue mage,geomancer,Gun Class(corsair),etc.) and completely go back on what they have said previously. It has happened in the past with this company and it will almost definitely happen again when they need to boost their subscription base again. Which is why expansions usually offer new level caps/abilities and new jobs to play as. So they can find ways for players to start playing again.

What straw man? That story you wrote about what the game should feel like is an opinion on how you see it. Nothing more. So i called it out as such. Everyone has their own idea on how the game should be run or played. Its why they offer many different options in attempt to please as many people as possible.I understand the whole "I want to feel heroic" thing, however i do not see primals or summons as a tool to be used, i see them as my partners and an extension of my power. I worked to earn that power and i mastered the button rotation pressing properly like everyone else!=P I can still feel like my summoner won even if my guy is not directly delivering the finishing blow. Just like my WHM wouldn't be directly delivering the finishing blow. Its a team effort no matter what job you play as. You can have whatever you want equipped onto summoner and still use all his abilities. So yeah.

Other mmo's didn't have a problem making pets jobs despite what you say about responsiveness so....okay? Even if your pet did take a second to use its abilities SMN is still doing damage anyways with DOT's on the side. Why would it matter that much at all if you did it in a different way, if it takes slightly longer than just increase the potency slightly to offset any lag in comparison to other jobs.You may say that's unnecessarily complicated to balance but in practice it would just be a button press like anything else on the players end. Just have your summons do burst damage and then have DOT effects like burn,freeze,suffocate,etc. on top of it and make it a double ability that mixes both old and new.Your pet will do burst damage and add a de-buff and DOT ontop of it. Each ability would be powerful so it would feel worth even if it did take a second or 2 longer than others. That's why cool downs for pet abilities would be longer than other class abilities.It will be only overpowered if you could keep casting it over and over again without a decent delay. I would not feel a disconnect with my pet because its AI vs AI that's the whole appeal of the pet class in the first place since i have a minion i can command and control and do damage in a unique way over other classes.What you find that takes you out of it, i find that it sucks me in.

I also happen to enjoy pet classes in games like diablo and play RTS's as a result of this personal preference.Maybe i have a god complex? =P

You obviously missed the facetious nature of my post. Akiza is rather notorious around these parts, for going on and on and on about this particular subject.

I was just suggesting that maybe she would be happier seeking an MMO that has a class more to her liking, rather than annoy people by bringing up her opinions at any opportunity for over a year when the Devs have made it clear that it's not changing it. As the old saying goes. "Hope in one hand, poop in another. See which fills up first."

Facetious huh? I did not find your "joke" or your "flippant" nature very amusing. I also heard countless people say something similar and it absolutely was more of a "screw those types of people" post. Who care's if anyone finds her annoying. Their loss if they waste time posting in attempt to convince her to stop.She will continue trucking on making completely legitimate by-the-rules posts. Outside the confines of the internet i have used this following philosophy, sometimes this works on the web too but i found extreme amount of success in this method in my real life that i have seen others constantly fail at. Do not offer advice unless it was asked for. Now it isn't an absolute rule, but when i use this rule in real life people are more appreciative that i am not drawing attention to their mistakes or failed results and instead being a happy go lucky guy towards them regardless of the situation that people feel compelled to correct.

Let her worry about her own happiness.

[Dyvid]

A lot of text... It doesn't say they are liking this job moreso they are picking one of two of the most powerful Magic DPS in the game for duty finder parties are evenly divided into categories.Does this chart represent end game content? Even if it does i bet that even if i wanted to bring rogue to a endgame raid they would prob. tell me to level up or force me to use a class i didn't want to use(like WHM) in order for me to participate. I don't really enjoy playing healing classes that much however i still register with duty finder a lot with my WHM because it gets me parties easier. So there thats.

I wonder if they remade the same chart a month from now after the rogue update, i guess you would say that since 90% of classes using duty finder are rogue that they must really like it and not simply leveling up another job so they're cross abilities are not gimped.(as why many people would level up alternate jobs that they may not even want to play.)

Even though rogue IS pretty sweet. >=D

You are using a lot of if's while the chart is just the facts. End game content still requires you to use DF and those are an even break down of all 5 dps jobs, not tanks or healers. 1/5 of players who use dps play as SMN so yea that's 1/5 of the dps player population who enjoy playing Summoner, Egi/DoTs and all. Summoner needs minor changes, not an overhaul.

[Deliciou5]

You are using a lot of if's while the chart is just the facts. End game content still requires you to use DF and those are an even break down of all 5 dps jobs, not tanks or healers. 1/5 of players who use dps play as SMN so yea that's 1/5 of the dps player population who enjoy playing Summoner, Egi/DoTs and all. Summoner needs minor changes, not an overhaul.

Lets say you are right. Should i assume that all of those players wouldn't be supportive of changes to the jobs? I really don't understand what stance that you are trying to take other than "lol obviously nothing is wrong with summoner cause all these people are playing!". Just because a job isn't broken doesn't mean people wouldn't enjoy changes(however big or small) to the job to make it more in line of what come to expect of summoners of past final fantasy's. I bet many of them wouldn't even question and totally think it would be awesome if better pets were to be added in next patch. Also how do you know what % of those players are endgame players among that 21%.You simply do not. Your logic is flawed. I have reasonable doubts because we know for a fact that not all of them are 50, we know for a fact that some only level for cross class abilities. We know for a fact that sometimes you have to switch to a opening in a raid otherwise you won't be able to play with your friends/FC mates. These things happen, the % of those people of that 21% is unknowable.

[dragonfire8974]

I do not address every single point because the points you sometimes had made were more statements than explanations. You keep saying stuff like. WELL EVERYONE KNOWS HOW MMO'S DO THINGS A CERTAIN WAY ITS SO OBVIOUS!

again... this is where endgame experience comes in. that 1 second response time is huge especially when getting out of the way of divebombs and other mechanics. pet dies, summoner dps screwed. That's why pets are limited in the amount of damage they do. high dmg mechanics make it necessary.

I'm about done with you, cause this is the 3rd time explaining it

BTW, never made this statement without any further explanation.... but you can go ahead and keep characterizing it like that. I have tried to engage you constructively and it is no longer worth the effort. if you wanna stop stop the sophistry for a minute then maybe you'll be worth responding to

[Deliciou5]

again... this is where endgame experience comes in. that 1 second response time is huge especially when getting out of the way of divebombs and other mechanics. pet dies, summoner dps screwed. That's why pets are limited in the amount of damage they do. high dmg mechanics make it necessary.

I'm about done with you, cause this is the 3rd time explaining it

BTW, never made this statement without any further explanation.... but you can go ahead and keep characterizing it like that. I have tried to engage you constructively and it is no longer worth the effort. if you wanna stop stop the sophistry for a minute then maybe you'll be worth responding to

Whatever makes you feel better man, half of your arguments even when you do try to explain make no sense to me. I am constantly asking myself...how does he even come to such conclusions?If i asked for citations on his statements would he able to produce?How does he know what other people think?He doesn't. This happens Over and over again.

Its pretentious to think that once you open your mouth, that you are absolutely right and that if i don't get it the first time you should repeat the same exact points over and over again as that makes them more true. Such as talking about MMO "balance" or that i do not know mmo mechanics but you never actually explain why.The closest you come was talking about how summoners needed to manage contagion....and even that was just a quick little footnote of why you are right instead of explaining a scenario or putting any effort in.

I already refuted these arguments over and over again to the best of my ability by offering ideas on how to get around certain problems you or other people would confront me with. I may not even be right half the time but at least i try to post ideas and refine them. You just keep repeating yourself on the same points and i end doing the same because i do not understand where you get your information from. You just make a lot bold statements about balance, or how i clearly don't know how mmo mechanics work.

It's all in the fact that you don't produce any alternative ideas, the most you done is agree with 1 or 2 of them or said how it MIGHT be possible. However you very rarely try to figure out how things could change. Saying how it always wasn't worth it, or its too "complicated". Very seldomly do you come close to making complete sense and whenever you do i agree with you or don't respond since i never had a problem with everything you said just the other ignorant parts of your post. You'd be surprised how often i winded up agreeing with you, but not saying it. I was only focused on defending myself since you think that you are right about everything.

It's fine, please stop. I won't mind you always seem aggressive yourself and are always talking down to me like you trying to teach me why i am wrong instead of objectively discussing it more often than not. Trying to get me to "realize" that i have a limited perspective ...even though i never denied that there a lot of things i may not know i just wanted to use the experience of others to make ideas better...but when is the last time you really even came up with an idea of your own that would have been more realistic so you can guide me on these mechanics you claim to know better than me.Instead you just simply try to explain why i am wrong without breaking anything down when it comes to actual combat scenarios or dungeons or even use your LIMITED knowledge of end game raids you claimed to have.You talk down to me for some arrogant reason. You are done with me indeed. =/

[dragonfire8974]

snip

check your own bias before the transference. I don't like discounting people but you've got a tiny persecution complex

BTW, eq 2 conjuror, pet issues. D3, pet issues, DND pet issues. when it comes to advanced content, it spans games when pets are the main damage of the class. either you do too far as the 3.0/3.5 dnd did and they kill everything, or you go to short, and you can't do endgame in D3

[RissotoMissoto]

Yes

It's a little goofy and In new content it's not holding up very well.

[Dyvid]

snip.

LOL, okay man. You continue to assume things if it helps you win arguments. How about first you get ACN to 50 and actually play some end game? Also we aren't against minor changes to improve the job, just the radical bulldozer change to make the job play just like FFXI or what other game the certain people want other than FFXIV's version. SMN is a DoT Caster with Egi pet, that's it.

[Exstal]

Yes

It's a little goofy and In new content it's not holding up very well.

Summoner's issues with new content is the fact that they constantly run low on MP. They need lower MP costs.