[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[Dyvid]

Balance




Also note that smn went from 16% to 21% says people are liking the job, not hating it.

[dday3six]

Maybe some of my suggestions are radical, however i was hoping that people take each idea on individual basis and maybe combined it with their own ideas to make it work. If i lack your experience i am glad to hear in detail on how my ideas will not work, so i can refine them. You only want to discuss me...not my ideas.

You're glad to hear, unless it is about balance, in which case you will say that it's not our job to balance the game.

Oh no i made a single mistake about the 2s because when i looked up information to educate myself on the job just to be sure i accidentally switched the numbers. I guess i should never be taken seriously again because you don't want change to happen after you repeatable use ad hominens yourself to say why my ideas hold no merit even though you never went into detail as to why. I guess the fact that i admitted to my mistake and willing to discuss my mistakes means i lack any credibility.How many people on the internet can actually admit their mistakes? I mean seriously. I guess this is why people cannot admit they are wrong on the internet half the time, because people want to constantly use it as leverage against them.

I mean do you know even what a ad hominem is?Here is an example i found to illustrate my point.

(1) William Dembski argues that modern biology supports the idea that there is an intelligent designer who created life.
(2) Dembski would say that because he’s religious.
Therefore:
(3) Modern biology doesn’t support intelligent design.
This argument rejects the view that intelligent design is supported by modern science based on a remark about the person advancing the view, not by engaging with modern biology. It ignores the argument, focusing only on the arguer; it is therefore a fallacious argument ad hominem.

See the bold statement?Maybe I was focused on you in my last post to you, so maybe i made the mistake myself since i was replying to your post that was completely ad hominem based. Your original post focused on me rather than anything i have said, you don't take any idea and dissect it only attack my credibility since you know you can't stop me from posting, otherwise you would probably have this entire thread shut down if you had your way.

I have actually went over one of your ideas...

Being versatile is one thing. Summoner having a combat rez is versatile. Doing too much as one job is overpowered.

Using your Stance Change example. If there was a job that could be a Tank with all their tanking skills in one stance and a complete Healer in the other. It would only make sense to play that job opposed to just a simple Tank or Healer. Balance is each job having a place at the table. If one job does exactly what another does, plus more, thus invalidating the other job. It's overpowered. There is no nuance to that.

You chose to ignore that, and instead focus on the idea that I'm attacking you. Playing the job to 50 and through endgame gives you a more defined scope. It's the difference between reading a book vs reading a book review or synopses.

So far everyone would rather say why i am wrong to discuss rather than on how the job could change. If you do not want the job to change, that is fine.However going out of your way to discredit others ideas because you believe that we should only follow YOUR guidelines on how we should discuss it is not only selfish, but completely ludicrous. Yes it may be somewhat selfish on my part that i want the job to change, however....FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE...AND.... looking at how many people voted for change in this thread i really do not think i am in the minority here. Summoner would guaranteed become one of the most played jobs if SE did do the job more justice than they have done.

Not everyone is saying that, you're letting disagreement run wild, and making case for some sort of persecution complex.

Am i Self-centered?Maybe.Once again an ad hominem focusing on people rather than the substance of the ideas i discussed.Any suggestion can be called selfish, are you trying to say we are not allowed to discuss what we want?Who is being self-centered here really?Just me? I highly doubt it.

I said...

The greatest issue I take with the vocal minority demanding a complete Summoner overhaul is the self-centered nature of their endeavor. I'll give you an example of your own selfish ideas for Summoner. Making it appear on the party list, so healers are now responsible for it staying alive. Why should healers be forced to have more job duties to take care of YOUR pet?

Most people are fine with Summoner the way it is. It's well represented according SE's most recent census. Any assumptions that the job needs to be more alluring are individual assertions, and not representative of the playerbase at large. A small collection of players want Summoner redone. They do not care if most people would rather SE work on new content. They don't care that current Summoners would have to basically learn a new class if that happens. All they care about is there own personal ideas of what a Summoner should be.

Your idea is selfish because it thought only about you, and not about how healer might feel with now having to take care of your pet. That is directed at your idea, not you as a person. If you desire to be taken seriously, I strongly urge you be learn to better recognize the difference.

What happens during expansions? What kind of abilities do you think they will add to summoners future?Please let me know of your ideas.Since it WILL eventually happen. It is only a matter of time before you have to learn a new way of playing your job(who's to say 10 levels worth of abilities won't be a drastic change?), change is in the very nature of the mmo. It is why people would make this topic in the first place. Hence, why SE completely reworked FFXIV in the first place. We all know if enough players demand change that SE will eventually listen. They may not enact these changes right away but we can refine them in the meantime and through many people's ideas and experience we all can temper and improve them instead of say they have no business talking about it.

Under the current system 10 levels would translate to 2 skills. That is not likely to enact any sort of dramatic change. Furthermore from a design standpoint it's easier to have fewer new skills added in 10 levels because it eliminates issues we currently face were a class/job plays very different depending on level. If several skills were added it would create issues were SE needs to balance dungeons around what skills job are going to have.

What happens slowly are over many expansions and years is not comparable to a total rework upfront. The reason it would be concerning for Summoners to suddenly have to learn to replay the job is because it removes their effectiveness during that time. People run the risk of being benched during progression raids. Ask a pre-2.1 Warrior how it feels to be told you need to play another job, or to join Duties only to be kicked or have people leave.

You keep talking of majority...in a thread that has a poll where more people voted to change the job than not.

Forums only represent a small number of the playerbase. The OP has not been updated in more than a year. 60 tallies total is a tiny amount compared to the 2.5 million players claims as of the 2.4 patch trailer. There is not thread after thread demanding a rework. The census shows that Summoners are equally represented. The thread is not the sole measure that I base statement of majority on.

[Akiza]

In game census is not good representation of a majority since players can have multiple Jobs. The Consensus doesn't tell us the percentage of players that main Summoner. People complain in a variety ways they can leave in game suggestions or vent in their fc chat only a small percentage of people complain on the forums most if they don't like the Job they silently stop playing without any feed back.

The reason Summoner threads pop up on Website Feed Back and Suggestions every 2 weeks and the Dps and General Thread every month is because the Summoner wasn't Beta Tested SE just put a Necromancer/Warlock in the game redressed it as a Summoner and told the player base suck it up because your stuck with it so players settled. I suggest SE take a look at the Archetype Summoner from EQ The Magician and The Conjuror reference point.

[Delily]

In game census is not good representation of a majority since players can have multiple Jobs. The Consensus doesn't tell us the percentage of players that main Summoner. People complain in a variety ways they can leave in game suggestions or vent in their fc chat only a small percentage of people complain on the forums most if they don't like the Job they silently stop playing without any feed back.

The in game census is generated using data mined by the duty finder. On the basis that people generally stick with 1 or 2 jobs, it's pretty accurate. And it's reasonable to extrapolate this data is representative of organized raiding as well. Simply dismissing is like you are because it runs counter to your beliefs is wrong. The data shows that people are playing the class, which means that for most people, it's fine as is. They may want things to change, but it's not stopping people from playing it. By the way, as someone mentioned, this complaint about the job seems to be localized only to the US.

The reason Summoner threads pop up on Website Feed Back and Suggestions every 2 weeks and the Dps and General Thread every month is because the Summoner wasn't Beta Tested SE just put a Necromancer/Warlock in the game redressed it as a Summoner and told the player base suck it up because your stuck with it so players settled. I suggest SE take a look at the Archetype Summoner from EQ The Magician and The Conjuror reference point.

No, forums, especially class forums tend not to be the place to go for meaningful feedback, since people tend to only post when they want the devs to make their character OP. It's why Blizzard (and Mythic) stopped posting in the class forums for their respective games.

[Delily]

Most people who don't want to see the Summoner reworked because it would change the Scholar.

[Citation needed.] I for one, am perfectly fine with the pet + DoT archetype here.

The only way to change the Summoner is to split it from the Arcanists and have the Scholar keep their current skill set. The Summoner should get Fire, Ice , Earth and Wind Elemental DoTs, a Stronger Elemental Avatar Pet and Utilities such as Self Buffs, Group Buffs, Pet Buffs and Single Target Buffs. Summoner should be able to cast more spells on the Pet.
Cast - Radiant Plume, Eruption and Vulcan Bursts for Ifrit Pet
Cast - Weight of the Land, Tumult and Bomb Boulder for Titan Pet
Cast- Great Whirlwind, Friction and Razor Plumes

Summoner Pet should get Hard Mod Primal abilities and look like a Hyur Highlander Scaled Primal.

So, apparently, you want the summoner to render monks, bards, black mages, and dragoons completely moot. Not only do not understand balance, you don't get it the dev would like to see a mixture of classes played, not everyone playing just one.

[Akiza]

The in game census is generated using data mined by the duty finder. On the basis that people generally stick with 1 or 2 jobs, it's pretty accurate. Simply dismissing is like you are because it runs counter to your beliefs is wrong. The data shows that people are playing the class, which means that for most people, it's fine as is. They may want things to change, but it's not stopping people from playing it. By the way, as someone mentioned, this complaint about the job seems to be localized only to the US.


No, forums, especially class forums tend not to be the place to go for meaningful feedback, since people tend to only post when they want the devs to make their character OP. It's why Blizzard (and Mythic) stopped posting in the class forums for their respective games.

Sony Everquest series has already showed that a Final Fantasy themed Summoner,based on Rydia Incarnation of the Summoner, Puppet Master and Scholar can work as well as be balanced with their versions of Summoner(Comjuror) and their take on the PuppetMater(Necromancer) and Scholar(Shaper). So why didn't SE take inspiration from Sony's EQ2 Conjuror for their version of the Final Fantasy XIV Summoner instead of Blizzards WoW Necromancer/Warlock which I feel has a poor man's version of EQ's class system.

[Razard]

Sony Everquest series has already showed that a Final Fantasy themed Summoner,based on Rydia Incarnation of the Summoner, Puppet Master and Scholar can work as well as be balanced with their versions of Summoner(Comjuror) and their take on the PuppetMater(Necromancer) and Scholar(Shaper). So why didn't SE take inspiration from Sony's EQ2 Conjuror for their version of the Final Fantasy XIV Summoner instead of Blizzards WoW Necromancer/Warlock which I feel has a poor man's version of EQ's class system.

Or you could just play Everquest 2.

Seems like a simple solution. You get the Summoner you dreamed of and we no longer have to deal with you posting the same thing over and over again.

Sounds fair to me.

[Akiza]

[Citation needed.] I for one, am perfectly fine with the pet + DoT archetype here.



So, apparently, you want the summoner to render monks, bards, black mages, and dragoons completely moot. Not only do not understand balance, you don't get it the dev would like to see a mixture of classes played, not everyone playing just one.

Mixuture is different ways to play the same type of role like two types of Burst AoE Casters or two types of party AoE Healers SE has it to where every Job pigeon holed into one role.

[Deliciou5]

/unnecessary aggression

Maybe i quoted the wrong example since this seems like a touchy subject for you... here is another.

"How can you argue your case for vegetarianism when you are enjoying your steak?”

This clearly shows how a person is attacked instead of being addressed for or against his argument.

Which is exactly what she was doing, questioning of why i should be even bothered posting ideas because of her perceived bias that in her mind didn't make me qualified to be taken seriously.She knows she can't stop me from posting so she instead tries to discredit me without addressing 90% of my ideas.I guess even if i make one mistake that just makes her absolutely right every time and i should NEVER be taken seriously again.

Have no clue why you responded to this part of my post, but whatever.Guess you needed to share your opinion on religion.

tldr: She talks about me and not my ideas 90% of the time. Honestly i rather be discussing fun new ways that summoner could be made more like the jobs namesake even if there is no major overhaul.

Each class changes very drastically over the course of their journey to 50, blm being one of the first when they get fire 3, then again with ice 3, then again with procs. Summoner gets several things between 40 and 50 that are completely integral to endgame and change a good amount of the normal rotation - contagion, shadow flare, miasma 2, and garuda. you wouldn't think it, but managing contagion changes a lot.

so accept that your perspective is limited, because it is. if you haven't played endgame summoner, you don't have a good perspective on how it compares to the other classes. I don't think it invalidates what you say, but it certainly limits credence.

I never acclaimed to be a authority on summoner. Read my other posts i used those exact words. However you seem to be convinced that if i post any ideas at all i guess i haven't learned my lesson yet? I do not get what you expect me to do even if i say this.

Also this is why i want experienced people like you to post, so you can share your expertise in constructive positive manner. However most people who do not want change at all just want to be cynical about every idea and try to stop people from even wanting to talk about them at all by mentally tiring them out with nonsense that has nothing to do with the meat and potatoes of their ideas, or even supplementing their own. This is why i won't respond to every person from now and only respond to those who put a decent amount of effort into their explanations like you have.You have my respect even if i do not always agree with you or vice versa.

1. you missed the point about MMO balance which is the heart of that argument, being accepted among a wide range of games from computer games to dungeons and dragons. Pets being the main dmg of the class instead of supplemental is problematic from a design perspective and a balance perspective. also the developers said they don't want that.

How can i address an assumption that has no substantial evidence to back it up. You just make a statement and i am suppose to go...OH THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING. IT IS WIDELY ACCEPTED FROM A BUNCH OF UNKNOWN SOURCES THAT I CANNOT LOOK UP OR ARGUE AGAINST.FINE! YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE PSYCHIC AND CAN READ MINDS. I'll JUST TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT.

Just because many different mmo's use a certain design does not mean you are automatically correct, it is possible that even developers have their own bias and simply didn't want to do the extra work and simply went the safe and boring route as Akiza explained.

Sony Everquest series has already showed that a Final Fantasy themed Summoner,based on Rydia Incarnation of the Summoner, Puppet Master and Scholar can work as well as be balanced with their versions of Summoner(Comjuror) and their take on the PuppetMater(Necromancer) and Scholar(Shaper). So why didn't SE take inspiration from Sony's EQ2 Conjuror for their version of the Final Fantasy XIV Summoner instead of Blizzards WoW Necromancer/Warlock which I feel has a poor man's version of EQ's class system.

There are other ways to make pet systems that work in other games, FFXIV is basically just another version of wow when it comes to a lot of gameplay design aspects. Many mmo's these days are in fact just like WoW, yet other mmo's use more traditional pet based systems that rely more on pets and summoning based gameplay.

3. it is the grinding for the pet that becomes a problem, and that's what I was referring to because you'd have to balance out the minimum grinded stats your pets have (unless it is trivial and they still only do 1/4 dmg whether maxed or min'd. then there would really be no point to do it). If it was significant and it did a good portion of the summoner's damage, then it would def have to be filtered out in dungeons because a no-grind ifrit would screw the team on dps checks. changing out abilities from a range of potentials i'm okay with (really doubt it will happen but Its a fun suggestion), but making it done in a way that someone can get to level 50 without those abilities could potentially be very bad exacerbated by the more damage the pet would deal as a percentage of the summoners total damage (again, unless the abilites were trivial, and thus why bother with complicating up a system that doesn't end up doing anything different)

balance is a concern from both a design and a player standpoint. if they have to change everything about the pet every time the ilvl goes up in the final dungeon, that's just unnecessary strain on the development team that will change the flow of content or the profitability of the game (if they have to hire more workers simply to balance out new content because of a ridiculously designed pet). your mountain analogy is bad because climbing is exercise, so difficulty is the desire. A better analogy would be the front door of your house not opening very well because you wanted it to look cool. yeah, sometimes I can't get through it, and other times it will be easy, but ultimately if a different paint/material had been used, any difficulty could be avoided.

Why would summoners go into their fates ungrinded? I guess your assuming the worst possible scenario, even though there is a way for players to check what level their summoner is..and according to ANOTHER one of my ideas you wouldn't really need to grind at all just have the summon at the same level as the player and use ITEM level to help further level it up. Therefore players will always know what level the summon is. Maybe the skills can be on a linear path and the different roles would be for the different pets. Therefore everyone will know what level their pets are and know what they are capable of when they use certain ones.

4. Lore should not limit gameplay, but I think story matters. if there is a reason teleportation is restricted that is story related, i'm excited to find it. that sort of thing can be sooooo interesting, just wiping it out would be sad for me as someone who enjoys the story in the games he plays (actually why I have stayed with this MMO as opposed to any other I have played). I can tell you spoilers about this if you would like, but there is some cool stuff having to do with it.

I highly doubt it would ruin your enjoyment, especially since SE is pretty good for giving good reasons for any lore/story changes they would make. Best case scenario it would be used as part of the mystery and therefore it will not be ruined for you. Another piece of the puzzle.

5. I will refer back to point 1. Its not that i'm afraid of change, it is that some of your suggestions would create more issues than it could help. the warrior of light being the person not the egi is a big sticking point in game design across media (plural of medium). If it were just my experience, I would say so. But there are webcomics devoted to this sort of thing. If players are helpless or unable to be effective without their summon or their transformation spell (50% of summoner damage is scholar damage), or mythical sword then they have very little power themselves and become unnecessary to the story. if anyone can pick up the same thing and be just as effective (if the summoner's pet did all the dmg and the summoner was just healing/protecting it), then it loses meaning that I, Magus Sinspotter, have finally beaten Bahamut. sorry buddy, but little timmy the orphan could have done it too if you had just given him the relic weapon you have been powering up for ages and that holds all your power. you're a horrible person for not letting timmy do it because he would have found a home, and never wanted for munny again. joke and an exaggeration, but that's why characters need to have their own power and not have it wrapped up in external things. to counter the argument taking the example and applying it to endgame weaponry, a blm, pld, war can make do with any weapon and still have access to all their powers. a summoner without his enhanced primal does not, thus the analogy to the mystic weapon

If summons worked like nukes, or utility spells, I don't have a problem with that suggestion in the slightest.

How do i argue against an opinion? I highly doubt SE will go...

"Well SOME people think they didn't personally accomplish anything if the buttons the player pushes do not show the right animations that show they directly attack the monster instead of the pet....so SCRAP THAT IDEA."

You just have romanticized vision of what the job should be...which is actually something that makes the game more fun for you. I get it i think the same way about my ideas. However what would make the game more fun for me is having powerful creatures at my command that i strategically use during battle with a combination of my own abilities and guile. In a way it's no different than they way you think just from the opposite side.

Or you could just play Everquest 2.

Seems like a simple solution. You get the Summoner you dreamed of and we no longer have to deal with you posting the same thing over and over again.

Sounds fair to me.

I hate this. The whole "if you don't like it leave/ignore it" arguement. She enjoys FFXIV and many different aspects of it, she is a fan. She also probably got her fill of everquests content before migrating here. Why would it be wrong for her to enjoy her favorite class the way she wants in her new favorite game? You sound pretty mean and ignorant.

You know what is a simple solution for you to avoid getting upset at her posts? Ignore them and do something else!

Sounds fair to me.
/irony

Balance




Also note that smn went from 16% to 21% says people are liking the job, not hating it.

It doesn't say they are liking this job moreso they are picking one of two of the most powerful Magic DPS in the game for duty finder parties are evenly divided into categories.Does this chart represent end game content? Even if it does i bet that even if i wanted to bring rogue to a endgame raid they would prob. tell me to level up or force me to use a class i didn't want to use(like WHM) in order for me to participate. I don't really enjoy playing healing classes that much however i still register with duty finder a lot with my WHM because it gets me parties easier. So there thats.

I wonder if they remade the same chart a month from now after the rogue update, i guess you would say that since 90% of classes using duty finder are rogue that they must really like it and not simply leveling up another job so they're cross abilities are not gimped.(as why many people would level up alternate jobs that they may not even want to play.)

Even though rogue IS pretty sweet. >=D

[dragonfire8974]

You just have romanticized vision of what the job should be...which is actually something that makes the game more fun for you. I get it i think the same way about my ideas. However what would make the game more fun for me is having powerful creatures at my command that i strategically use during battle with a combination of my own abilities and guile. In a way it's no different than they way you think just from the opposite side.

Also, not my opinion about religion, my opinion was about intelligent design as science. it is not by all measures. I don't like misinformation. The idea that there is even a debate on climate change is laughable but it happens because of people deliberately misinforming people.... but again, digression

No, i wouldn't get my enjoyment ruined by teleportation being involved

People used to queues for dungeons as tanks then switch to DPS to get around the queues, registering for a duty without a max level pet is certainly something that can happen especially if pet progression is uncoupled from class progression. but it is just another part to balance making sure summoners aren't too weak with an ungrinded pet that they cannot function, or too strong with a maxed out pet that no other class is desired for content. I'm sure this idea could be implemented, but it seems like it would be clunky. I do not want to see specializing in a pet either as that is another way to exclude unoptimal setups from progression. Referring to the community back when the game was fresh 2.0 BLMs were in high demand for speedruns and in 0 demand for progression content and were unable to find a group. it was almost comical seeing the demand for players to switch back and forth between those two classes if someone primaried BLM, the reverse was not the case (primary summoners did not get pressured to switch to BLM for speedrun content).

Now to the less fun part - your postings about wanting something the developers have constantly said no to is, by her/his (I can never tell over the internet) context, the draw for her remarks. You seem to also have the same attitude towards balance as Akiza (correct me if i'm wrong), 'let the developers work it out.' So I would again say your analogy is inaccurate because developers have already ruled on some of the issues you're raising and you do not want to abide by it. Merits of that one way or another aside, that's the opposition you're getting.

I have brought up a multitude of examples as to how a pet is problematic, but go ahead and ignore those too. Pet progression is problematic as it becomes more and more a part of the character's effectiveness - I have explained this in several different ways using several different examples that I don't wanna retype.


BTW, great strawman - completely ignored the idea for the fun little story i wanted to type. AI vs AI removes the player from the game unless the character is directly controlling that AI. Then the person is playing an extra character, or being a healer/support to their pet (healers can put out some damage sometimes). two problems come up. first, the AI would need to be very responsive, have queuing commands and be able to be quickly and easily micromanaged to keep it effective if it is a large portion of the character's damage as you have suggested. While you have suggested some ways around that, the responsiveness is not there in the current system required for this sort of play (this is where experience micromanaging your pet would have been handy as you would know how long it takes for a pet to execute a commanded action such as whispering dawn or contagion). As someone who isn't very far in the endgame myself, every second counts when doing progression content. The only way to fix that would be to have the pet be like it is now just with more attack power because most of its damage comes from repeated abilities rather than cooldowns. Endgame pets doing 200+ dps while the summoner and scholar are racing each other to see who can out damage the other. Summoner becomes the easiest class to do well in and would be rather boring IMO

i'm leaving the 2nd problem off because i'm tired of this tonight.

EDIT: Actually the Item level thing you said was your idea was actually how the system works now... unless you wanted some different progression