[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[Deliciou5]

My bad it's been a while since i played arcanist, however even if it's not 2 seconds it should be if it was more pet focused. Also i have another character is 50 dragoon. I also play on my bro's account and he has multiple 50's. I also played FFXI extensively as WHM,SMN,NIN,RDM,BLU,SCH, and BLM. I do not claim to be an expert, i am only here to discuss ideas that may inspire one of the devs to put their own spin on it. I do not suspect they would use my ideas 1:1 only that they have a lightbulb moment where they go "Yeah...with some tweaking that could work."

Also wiping because of not attacking can happen at any time for any class, whether is internet connectivity issues, someone not paying attention, being petrified etc. I highly doubt that would be the reason why SE would not add ideas in. Pets can be a burden if used incorrectly, but i doubt they would be as much if they received the proper abilities.

Not fear based, based on the fact I have played aforementioned classes and had those issues. And seriously, tl;dr. I hate being crit by a wall o' text on an mmo forum.

TLDR? How did i know you would say that...typical.You obviously are not here to discuss ideas...your just here to be prove you are right instead of engaging in meaningful discussion. Clearly you got through my post enough to notice what i said...so... huh? You have an opinion that claiming your experience makes you an authority on mechanics that don't even exist in game yet?Riiiight.I do not doubt that if they are minor changes to the job you would have some merit, however that does not make you an expert on a theoretical combinations of abilities and utilities that does not yet exist in extensive detail. I guess you just totally proved me wrong with good ole rhetoric.

[dday3six]

My bad it's been a while since i played arcanist, however even if it's not 2 seconds it should be or would be if it was more pet focused.

So, I'm just suppose to ignore that fact that you don't know about a job that you are wanting to have rebuilt from the ground up? On top of the fact that you might not even have played any post 50 content...

[Deliciou5]

So, I'm just suppose to ignore that fact that you don't know about a job that you are wanting to have rebuilt from the ground up? On top of the fact that you might not even have played any post 50 content...

I am making suggestions to make the job more appealing, you arguing currently not against any ideas i had, but my authority to even be allowed to make them. I am sorry but that weak logic will not prove anything other than you nothing else to say other than to attack the man instead of his ideas. I have more than enough knowledge of the job to make a fair assessment plus my experience in WoW, FFXI, Allods, Rift, Everquest, and many many other MMO's i played. Yet, I do not claim to be an authority on anything.Even level 50's can completely suck at their jobs, a number doesn't mean you can sit here and assume all my knowledge of the game. . If i make mistakes and if your arguments against my idea hold water i will try my best to brainstorm ideas, then you will bounce back with your own....it's a process not a debate on whether or not we should even have them.

I do not need a level 50 in that job/class to know what i want out of it, i am just as qualified as anyone to say what i want.With your help I can refine my ideas everyone just seems adamant on finding excuses on why we should not even be allowed to discuss, how times have people asked for the thread to be locked, how many times have people just tried to make a fool of others instead of actually having constructive ideas.You do not want change, that is why you did think of any single idea at all. Everybody wants to be critic...nothing more =/.

[Delily]

Apparently you don't quite grok this. Sure, you can go ahead and work out a detailed solutions for all those problems, and you might be partially successful. Or you could do the simple thing and not introduce those issues in the first place. Do you even know why the job is designed the way it is? Or are you just spouting off because the job is not a special snowflake?

[dragonfire8974]

My bad it's been a while since i played arcanist, however even if it's not 2 seconds it should be or would be if it was more pet focused.



Also TLDR? How did i know you would say that...typical.You obviously are not here to discuss ideas...your just here to be prove you are right instead of engaging in meaningful discussion...and clearly you got through my post enough notice i said what i said...so huh? It is no excuse to not offer suggestions on ways to fix these issues. You have an opinion that it is wrong claiming your experience makes you an authority on mechanics that don't even exist in game yet?Riiiight. I guess you just totally proved me wrong with good ole rhetoric.

its a pretty reasonable assumption that you are new to MMOs because there are basic design flaws with the points you bring up. May not be new to MMOs, but your suggestions suggest and unfamiliarity to game design/balance (as well as quite a bit of unnecessary hostility)

1. Again, this has been brought up by developers and players alike, when your pet goes, your DPS does when it is a pet class, especially if it is more focused than it already is (now it is about 1/4 summoner dmg). I noticed you didn't counter any of the things delily said

2. Did i read this right? you want all pets to be able to do melee and ranged attacks with no need to close into melee or (with the teleport home button) no need to get back into range?

3. Pet stats based on class level would mean gear makes less and less difference with the amount of dmg the pet does. fresh 50 summoners would have to have a pet equal to those who are ilvl 130, meaning summoners faceroll all lower content unless their pets do very little of the summonser's potential max. This would be silly to balance, especially as ilvls increase. more interesting mathematically though. Don't even get me started with having to level up 3 (or 4 if you like carby) pets as a summoner. Either it means you have to level the class 3 times, or the leveling process is easy enough that it will happen in normal progression. This would be the only class that could potentially be leveling things while still being at 50 making dungeon groups just a little more unpredictable. How would pet level be factored into queues? a lvl 1 ifrit should not be able to be summoned during garuda ex. much more layers of silliness and filtering needed to be done then

4. You're working in a hypothetical with abilities we don't have and may not ever get that also seem like they have no place in the world. the only things that can easily teleport anywhere is *omitted due to spoilers*, everyone else is confined to aetherites. It would just be weird to have egis all of a sudden gain an ability that seems like it has been purposefully excluded from the game.

5. Again, contrary to a point brought up by the development team and in many MMOs in the past, they want the character to be the warrior of light, not his egi. It would be ridiculous for the warrior of light to be rather helpless on her/his own and kinda contrary to the whole final fantasy thing. Of course, helpless being a relative thing here, but if the character is very little without his or her pet (lets say will only do 1/2 dmg), it has been a big issue in all MMos with pets that it feels silly - not to mention that every summoner would have to play two characters (the egi and the summoner itself), the abilities would have to be split between the two, and all the new abilities to make the pet more durable so the summoner is not completely screwed if it gets killed or unsummoned. It brings up far more design complexity making the class much more complicated to accomplish what it already does and does well. BTW, a year ago, when pets were susceptible to full AOE dmg there was a lot of complaints from summoners because raid-wide AOE dmg killed their pets gimping their damage even though the pet does about 1/4 of the summoner's total damage. now AOE does much less to pets, but sometimes you still can lose them. With your new and improved pet, would they be again susceptible to full raid damage? Other hazards? if they had those special movement options, why not? Either way, pet mechanics are extremely complicated, and the more powerful the pet is, the more complicated it is to manage these concerns from a balance perspective. More unnecessary complexity for very little to absolutely no gain

6. AOE damage is very unimportant in this game. why BLM needed a buff for endgame stuff. Summoner summons are spells and there is no pet? interesting idea, also don't mind the idea of customizable egis

[Delily]

You don't get it, do you? You are looking at the class in isolation. The designers have given a full response to this issue. In multiple forums.

[Deliciou5]

its a pretty reasonable assumption that you are new to MMOs because there are basic design flaws with the points you bring up. May not be new to MMOs, but your suggestions suggest and unfamiliarity to game design/balance (as well as quite a bit of unnecessary hostility)

1. Again, this has been brought up by developers and players alike, when your pet goes, your DPS does when it is a pet class, especially if it is more focused than it already is (now it is about 1/4 summoner dmg). I noticed you didn't counter any of the things delily said

2. Did i read this right? you want all pets to be able to do melee and ranged attacks with no need to close into melee or (with the teleport home button) no need to get back into range?

3. Pet stats based on class level would mean gear makes less and less difference with the amount of dmg the pet does. fresh 50 summoners would have to have a pet equal to those who are ilvl 130, meaning summoners faceroll all lower content unless their pets do very little of the summonser's potential max. This would be silly to balance, especially as ilvls increase. more interesting mathematically though. Don't even get me started with having to level up 3 (or 4 if you like carby) pets as a summoner. Either it means you have to level the class 3 times, or the leveling process is easy enough that it will happen in normal progression. This would be the only class that could potentially be leveling things while still being at 50 making dungeon groups just a little more unpredictable. How would pet level be factored into queues? a lvl 1 ifrit should not be able to be summoned during garuda ex. much more layers of silliness and filtering needed to be done then

4. You're working in a hypothetical with abilities we don't have and may not ever get that also seem like they have no place in the world. the only things that can easily teleport anywhere is *omitted due to spoilers*, everyone else is confined to aetherites. It would just be weird to have egis all of a sudden gain an ability that seems like it has been purposefully excluded from the game.

5. Again, contrary to a point brought up by the development team and in many MMOs in the past, they want the character to be the warrior of light, not his egi. It would be ridiculous for the warrior of light to be rather helpless on her/his own and kinda contrary to the whole final fantasy thing. Of course, helpless being a relative thing here, but if the character is very little without his or her pet (lets say will only do 1/2 dmg), it has been a big issue in all MMos with pets that it feels silly - not to mention that every summoner would have to play two characters (the egi and the summoner itself), the abilities would have to be split between the two, and all the new abilities to make the pet more durable so the summoner is not completely screwed if it gets killed or unsummoned. It brings up far more design complexity making the class much more complicated to accomplish what it already does and does well. BTW, a year ago, when pets were susceptible to full AOE dmg there was a lot of complaints from summoners because raid-wide AOE dmg killed their pets gimping their damage even though the pet does about 1/4 of the summoner's total damage. now AOE does much less to pets, but sometimes you still can lose them. With your new and improved pet, would they be again susceptible to full raid damage? Other hazards? if they had those special movement options, why not? Either way, pet mechanics are extremely complicated, and the more powerful the pet is, the more complicated it is to manage these concerns from a balance perspective. More unnecessary complexity for very little to absolutely no gain

6. AOE damage is very unimportant in this game. why BLM needed a buff for endgame stuff. Summoner summons are spells and there is no pet? interesting idea, also don't mind the idea of customizable egis

#2 was a response to various ways that a developer could avoid a pet getting stuck,I did not intend for all of them to happen at the same time...so sorry if i written that part poorly.
I not a huge lore buff so i wouldn't know what is supposed to be limited for lore purposes.I would expect SE to break their own rules though if it suited them. Hence, the fact that there are beings that CAN teleport anywhere so they could tell a certain kind of story.

I was always in more favor of a pet less job,it was due to chaotic nature of the fast paced spammy gameplay of FFXIV in comparison to how slow and calculated FFXI was.When i look at like that It would be alot more difficult to balance it which is why i think the recast should be lowered, or maybe even makes the pets invincible through "perfect dodge" abilities the pet could use automatically from time to time. I am just throwing ideas out and how to change up current pet mechanics even if it isn't the most well thought ideas i expected people to engage in meaningful discussion not try to put down and attack. Maybe that is why i am a bit passive-agressive. They claim to know their job well yet they do not take any ideas and try to refine them or supplement their own, just attack them. So i apologize, if i was being a bit rude.

The idea for just simply spells instead of pets spawned from the idea that in FFXI you could summon odin and alexander, but due to the nature of how powerful they were you could only use them as 2 hour abilities. Since yoshida went on record to say that he wanted primals to have that presence in game i thought it would be a good idea to make primals in a similar fashion, esp. since past turn based FF's ussually had summons in this fashion, iti was not until...i think FF8...that pets did more than just a singular attack.

I would answer every point in more detail however i am all tuckered out from that last wall of text i wrote.

@Delily And there is nothing wrong with feeling like a special little snowflake if that's what i want to play as =P.
After all, why did they add jobs into the game if the base classes were good enough, clearly they were not.They wanted the game to had more style and nostalgia to it.
Snowflaketeer Go!

[Akiza]

Alot of people on this Forum played other MMORPG's so they know every Class idea has already been done so avoid going into great detail and say what class you want from another game to be implemented as this game Summoner like the forum GM said. My favorite version of the Summoner was the Conjuror Summoner from Everquest 2

So I would simply say I want Everquest 2 Conjuror Type Summoner implemented as this games Summoner

[Exstal]

I want FFXIV Summoner to be like Aion Online's Spiritmaster. They should get the abilit to fuse any two-egi together for a super Egi that has a very long CD (10m).

[dday3six]

I am making suggestions to make the job more appealing, you arguing currently not against any ideas i had, but my authority to even be allowed to make them. I am sorry but that weak logic will not prove anything other than you nothing else to say other than to attack the man instead of his ideas. I have more than enough knowledge of the job to make a fair assessment plus my experience in WoW, FFXI, Allods, Rift, Everquest, and many many other MMO's i played. Yet, I do not claim to be an authority on anything.Even level 50's can completely suck at their jobs, a number doesn't mean you can sit here and assume all my knowledge of the game. . If i make mistakes and if your arguments against my idea hold water i will try my best to brainstorm ideas, then you will bounce back with your own....it's a process not a debate on whether or not we should even have them.

I do not need a level 50 in that job/class to know what i want out of it, i am just as qualified as anyone to say what i want.With your help I can refine my ideas everyone just seems adamant on finding excuses on why we should not even be allowed to discuss, how times have people asked for the thread to be locked, how many times have people just tried to make a fool of others instead of actually having constructive ideas.You do not want change, that is why you did think of any single idea at all. Everybody wants to be critic...nothing more =/.

Ad hominem works as such that I would ignore your personal hang-ups about right to be heard and assertions of authority, not work around them. I would also direct toward your comments of integrity. That is a fine example "works for me, but not for you". Especially when I wasn't even attacking your character.

Actually playing this game is the most relevant experience. 2s vs 6s is not a minor flub which can be so easily dismissed by "My Bad". It is demonstrates a clear lack of insight into the class/job you want to rework. It's a flawed foundation which sound logic cannot be build upon. Illustrating this is not an outright revoke of vocalization. Rather the implication that expressions of that nature hold less weight juxtaposed to those of a more pertinent one.

The greatest issue I take with the vocal minority demanding a complete Summoner overhaul is the self-centered nature of their endeavor. I'll give you an example of your own selfish ideas for Summoner. Making it appear on the party list, so healers are now responsible for it staying alive. Why should healers be forced to have more job duties to take care of YOUR pet?

Most people are fine with Summoner the way it is. It's well represented according SE's most recent census. Any assumptions that the job needs to be more alluring are individual assertions, and not representative of the playerbase at large. A small collection of players want Summoner redone. They do not care if most people would rather SE work on new content. They don't care that current Summoners would have to basically learn a new class if that happens. All they care about is there own personal ideas of what a Summoner should be.