Do NOT make the same mistake as FFXI.

[Duelle]

People just resort to the least common denominator (Ranged classes.) The same thing happened when the r50 NMs came out. Sure, the content still needs much more balancing, but players also need to grow some balls and stop pigeonholing players into specific roles. It's hard, sure, but not impossible. I for one am loving the challenge.

Sorry, but rule #1 of player dynamics is that they're always affected by game mechanics. Game mechanics have shifted in favor of stacking ranged and things being melee unfriendly. The healer pool has been basically cut in half. Your challenge is only challenge when it can still encompass all classes and their respective styles, not when it is challenging to the "most successful" comp and nigh impossible (or exponentially difficult to the point the risk:reward ratio is utterly clusterf****d) for anything other than the "most successful" comp.

[Preypacer]

Do you really think players WANT to change their playstyle? The playstyle is as unique as our own individual personalities - it is a reflection of our preferences and tastes. If we are forced to change it, we are in essence being made to deny ourselves our real identities.

Square Enix is an idiot for this. (They are also idiots for failing to understand and apply the concept of incremental moderation in effecting changes to their product.)

Well that's a bit unrealistic.

There's no MMO out there that allows you to play *exactly* the way you might want to. In every MMO, - even classless, purely skill-based ones - your playstyle is always limited within the confines of what the game allows.

There are always compromises.

To that end, expecting a game developer to alter a game to allow every single individual person to play *exactly* the way they'd *like* to if they could is unrealistic.

It's one thing to say you're unhappy with the changes SE has made.

But it's rather far-fetched and bordering on hyperbolic to argue that they're denying you the ability to reflect your "true identity".

[SilvertearRen]

Well that's a bit unrealistic.

There's no MMO out there that allows you to play *exactly* the way you might want to. In every MMO, - even classless, purely skill-based ones - your playstyle is always limited within the confines of what the game allows.

There are always compromises.

To that end, expecting a game developer to alter a game to allow every single individual person to play *exactly* the way they'd *like* to if they could is unrealistic.

It's one thing to say you're unhappy with the changes SE has made.

But it's rather far-fetched and bordering on hyperbolic to argue that they're denying you the ability to reflect your "true identity".

I think what I was getting at was that Square Enix keeps expecting us to play one particular way, with each given class, and it's kind of getting ridiculous. Whatever happened to being able to individualize?

[Preypacer]

I think what I was getting at was that Square Enix keeps expecting us to play one particular way, with each given class, and it's kind of getting ridiculous. Whatever happened to being able to individualize?

Perhaps.

Frankly, in my experience across myriad MMOs of varying playstyles, the concept of "individualizing" in a MMO is an illusion. I'm not saying it's not worth pursuing... it just never happens.

Why? For the very reasons people have brought up in this thread.

If a pre-determined class-design doesn't limit you to specific roles, then the rest of the player-base will, starting with the min/maxers and working its way across the playerbase from there.

There are so many MMOs out there that offer, seemingly, limitless playstyle options, they're classless and purely skill-based, in those MMOs "you are what you do" so to speak. What ends up happening, regardless? Players start reducing the options down to a handful of "proven builds" that are deemed "the most optimal" anyway. So you end up in exactly the same situation as if the developers had determined those roles instead.

The irony is, in those skill-based games, after the players have reduced all those countless combinations down to the "accepted few", they'll still turn around and blame the devs for it. Why? Because people also very seldom have any sense of personal accountability. Everything is always someone else's fault, even when it isn't. But that's a whole other issue.

No matter what SE does, how flexible they make the system or how many options they truly provide, you can bet your ass the players will step in, define and impose restrictions in their stead.

This picture sums it up best

SE - and all developers - can, and should, do everything in their power to try and provide as diverse and interesting an experience as they can. However, the players - at some point - have to do their part to resist writing guides, crowning them as "The One And Only Correct Way To Play" and then demanding everyone follow them or "they're not playing right". That's a behavior SE - or any developer - can do nothing about.

Should it happen? Absolutely. Will it? I stopped holding my breath a long time ago.

[MeowyWowie]

Maybe there is a special strat with melee and no one discovered it yet.

This. After figuring out the strategy for melee groups it has been very easy to defeat the ogre. I would argue that there is hardly any difference between the "easy mode" setup and any other, in terms of difficulty. People are just scared to try new things themselves.

"Omg Ogre was killed with ARC burn, it MUST be the easiest way cuz no one else has killed it any other way yet!!!"

Instead of

"Well you can kill it with an ARC party, but let's try and make a strategy for melee parties."

That's the problem. The fight is perfectly balanced for all classes, avoiding damage just happens to be one of ARC's strong points (it's part of the class..)

[Physic]

the problem is some people wanted class uniqueness, SE interpreted this as rigid roles for each class, and no one else being able to do whatever some one was good at, so they made glad the best tank by nerfing marauder and pugilist tools, and stamina change, they made conjurer into a healing class, and gave them the best heals, and they let archer remain the safest and highest dps in a party.

they should have tweaked initial gameplay mechanics, added a job/role system that pulls from your available class skills to be a specialized role.
IE whm is a caster that focus on healing and protection, and pulls various skills from multiple jobs to achieve this. not con is the bootleg whm of whom, half his skills are useless because he needs all his mp to cure. then later he can fully abandon his other skills and become a pure mage, and the elemental skills can be left in the dirt.

even if thaum tries to cross class them they wont be worth it, thaum best split thier elemental strength among 3 elements to maximize either light or dark dmg, whereas con needs to specialize into 1 or 2 elements. and on top of that, just cross classing the skill will drop its damage with the same mattack to to prolly around 65-75% of whatever the con damage would have been on that spell.

So unless they choose to go back on their plans and make con into a blm and a whm, that means elemental magic is just fireworks for conjurers who will have to wear the chains of a healer for the next 6 months to a year.

btw, jobs arent expected to be in till after 1.20 at earliest, all they said is they would have formulated thier plan by the end of 1.20, not have it implemented

[Physic]

This. After figuring out the strategy for melee groups it has been very easy to defeat the ogre. I would argue that there is hardly any difference between the "easy mode" setup and any other, in terms of difficulty. People are just scared to try new things themselves.

"Omg Ogre was killed with ARC burn, it MUST be the easiest way cuz no one else has killed it any other way yet!!!"

Instead of

"Well you can kill it with an ARC party, but let's try and make a strategy for melee parties."

That's the problem. The fight is perfectly balanced for all classes, avoiding damage just happens to be one of ARC's strong points (it's part of the class..)

problem is, its strong suit is avoid damage AND dealing it. so why take another DD if they arent your friend, and you are picking your job?

it needs to be balanced, that may not mean making things easier, maybe it means more monsters with binds, teleports, or skills that put archers in some slight risk. maybe it means having ranged minions, or maybe it means lowering thier DD since they can avoid most damages.

[MeowyWowie]

problem is, its strong suit is avoid damage AND dealing it. so why take another DD if they arent your friend, and you are picking your job?

it needs to be balanced, that may not mean making things easier, maybe it means more monsters with binds, teleports, or skills that put archers in some slight risk. maybe it means having ranged minions, or maybe it means lowering thier DD since they can avoid most damages.

Either setup kills him at the exact same rate, averaging about 10 min~. What's the difference in DPS? Please enlighten me.

[Gramul]

I think what I was getting at was that Square Enix keeps expecting us to play one particular way, with each given class, and it's kind of getting ridiculous. Whatever happened to being able to individualize?

You lost a bit of it when Square listened to the people that wanted set duties for each class like in FFXI.

Or rather, you are for now. People want CON to be the healer class because there is currently no better alternative. When the White Mage Job comes out, people will want them to be the healers and CON will theoretically have more freedom to do as they please. We'll see how it works out.

[Physic]

Either setup kills him at the exact same rate, averaging about 10 min~. What's the difference in DPS? Please enlighten me.

So your saying that this patch has altered the dps curves? if thats case, then that at least is a good thing, but last time i checked archer dps way better than other jobs for less risk, the less risk is still there, the more dps is i guess a question we will have to answer again.

so in your current op from your current experiences in the new patch, all DD are the same dps?