Hey, Sincerely Thank You SE for easing up on Coil

[LiveVoltage]

Okay guys. So I will be eating my own words now. Balmung isnt full of greedy, money grubbing players and statics. However, a static saw it kind enough to bestow upon me the gift of a free T5 clear and for that I am eternally grateful. ;-;

She did say though that alot of statics on the servers across the USA and Europe are greedy and elitist so there is that. Ultimantely, while my win was provided by people of a high level static, all completely outfitted with SCOB gear, the point still remains that the difficulty curb for T5 is too much with the instant kill mechanics it has. My biggest issue with the Twisters phase because if you didnt have people that knew what they were doing or you couldnt DPS the Dread to death quickly enough, it was an almost guaranteed wipe.

My choice would be to remove dread's for phase 4 so that way the only thing the players would need to worry about is twister.

[Kinseykinz]

I've come to expect the overall difficulty will decrease as the next coil season begins, which I'm ok with if it meant that more people would join the top-tier raiding communities. ...

I fully understand where you're coming from, and in many respects, I agree with you. The real reason however, that there is a 'gap' has less to do with the 'nerf' cycle, and much more to do with the current lock-out system. I mean right now, even if you wanted to, you couldn't take 2-3 new people in and show them the ropes on T6+ and STILL meet with your static. You have to choose. Help friends/keep up with my static/get my static fully ready for the next wave of new content.

So what happens, is in basically every FC, LS, and 'circle' in game there is the unlucky few that are likely talented enough to do said content, but simply can't gain access to it. Oh sure, they might be actively trying to PuG it via PF etc....but without an established group to go in and out with each and every time, their chances of success are slimmer, and even if they get the clear, the next week, they have to re-do the whole process again...PF PuG it with various groups until they get clears. Now sometimes, this works out, and new 'Static's are formed...but since many 'statics' are bound to FC's etc...sometimes even this blows things all up.

Furthermore, in either case, whether the 'non-established static' talent tried to PF it or not, they likely are at least gear-wise, if not content-wise behind the 'hardcore statics' that had been grinding the locked content for months. New locked content then comes out, and many (not all) of the hardcore rush off to do that, more or less leaving the talented but static-less once again, behind....and now those folk have to DF/PF the 'unlocked' but older content with a mix of people of their skill level, people who have no business even attempting it yet who are either delusional or looking for a carry, and 'helper friends' who have the content on farm and the patience of angels. Still, since many of the 'helpers' are members of established statics, that are already challenging the NEW content, it is unlikely, unless a position opens up in said statics, for the talented, but staticless people to be invited to the new content.

So even without 'dumbing' it down, until SE realizes that they should 'unlock' Coil before the next Coil patch happens....this cycle will likely continue.

Basically:
Patch 2.4 BC3 released w/lockouts as planned
However by patch 2.5 (and/or 3 months after multiple groups have the final floor on farm), drop the lockout on people...keep the gear locked to 'can lot on gear items on your first win of the week for each floor' So if your static goes in, and clears the floor you can lot as normal...but then if you all decide to split in 2 and help your FC mates learn various turns, you all can't lot if you win a turn...your FC mates that got their first win of the week however, can.

This WOULD allow:
1. Those with skill to teach friends how to play at the same skill level
2. That 'extra' DPS in your FC that can't fit into a static, a chance to keep up on content
3. Better bonding and growth within the FC (FC's stay strongest if they can support their members from the inside...ANY time your FC mates need to rely on PF for content, it puts their membership within your FC at a slight risk...afterall, if they find that 'dream team' and the requirement to join is 'be in our FC' which so many static's have, they have to decide Friends>progression. But if you can help members within the same FC while the content is still relevant, and top...well that's a win-win for all.


Now all that said:

There IS still a time and place where nerfs need to happen to OLD content. Why? because tbh, at some point the content is so old/outdated, it's not worth doing more than 'to continue the story' anymore.
For example, once patch 2.4 comes out, people who still need Twintania wins, aren't doing it to farm ilvl 90-95 weapons and gear. Heck, most are walking around 10-15ish ilvl's higher than that gear by this point. They are only doing it so they can progress. Basically, we are fast approaching the time in game where Twin becomes much like 'Cape Westwind' in the DF....a necessary step to continue your progression, but nothing anyone queues for outside of that 'one time clear'. So you'll have people stuck for a different reason (no one challenging the content). By making it easier, you'll get people through it faster, and without the reliance on a FC/LS/PF of people. Now, yes, SE should probably add incentives for old people to still queue for this fight (ala primals) but I'd argue, I've 'carried' many a Titan win as healer so...just encouraging skilled players to queue isn't solving the 'skill' ceiling of other players either. Best SE can do, is nerf truly old content so those playing either catch-up or far more casual can still experience the game (which they have a right to do), without making them rely on the skills of the 'vets' at every turn. There is nothing wrong with making it so old content, dropping now throw-away gear, is DFable. Keep in mind, BC1 is over a year old at this point.

Still, BC2, should either remain more or less unchanged or have very, very modest 'nerfs'. Why? because the next round of people challenging it, will be the people WITH the talent to clear it but who lack a static. These folk deserve a month or so of it being normal difficulty. After that, most of those folk should have it all cleared, and be either patiently waiting for access to BC3, and/or helping people behind them with BC2. Then maybe, maybe Echo's should happen. Still once again, once it's over a year old...and has replacement content above it's head (and likely an expansion to boot), no one should get up in arms over this too, being made easier. Because by this point, it's not your 'hardcore' raiders still stuck, but that good, loveable, crafter in your FC who just wants to clear it once to see the story....or that new friend who just started playing a month ago and needs to catch up. Let them catch up. Let them enjoy the story.

[Kinseykinz]

My choice would be to remove dread's for phase 4 so that way the only thing the players would need to worry about is twister.

Or keep dreads, but make twisters not KO unless party members are 'too close' when they go off. This way, the integrity of the battle is in-tact, people still need to spread/pay attention/dps more than twin, but the 'insta-kill' portion is removed.
As to the dread insta-kill mechanic, i'd say keep it...but that could also be changed to a super-long stun lock that more or less takes that person out of the battle for a longer period of time if reached and/or twister bait.

Although that said, my change technically makes it so people will expect healers to carry a heavier burden (technically no one but the tank should get hit in this phase. Period)...and I don't know if it's fair to say 'yo we made it easier...except for you healers, good luck with that'

Most of the reason DF and T5 remains a hellscape is:
1. Divebombs. I don't exactly want them removed...but maybe make them function and hit more like ST's version will assist people. As if they worked like ST, the 'stack in the corner' method would be silly, just stand center and let her knock you then heal. (ideally the targeted person would get away from others(or the non-targeted could move away)...but rarely do they do that in ST...typically the let the whole group eat it)

2. Twisters+Dreads. This is a combination of things.
-Lack of 'Focus Target' AND watching for twisters
-Too spread out and can't attack Dread easily and/or too close to center and they don't give DPS enough time window to kill dread b/c they stand too close.
-Panic/not clear on what to do/where to go next.

The actual DPS checks themselves, conflags/snakes/even dreads actually are easily met at this point by most teams...the issues (and why people die), are 'knowing what to pay attention to' and knowing where to stand/position. So my suggestion would be make it so player positioning is less critical (IE doesn't lead to 1-shot kills of yourself/MPK's) and more people would down this fight...via DF/PF without near as much trouble. All the actual DPS/Healer/Tank checks could remain in place.

[RickXRolled]

Even if they nerf most the mechanics, introduce higher Ilevel and echo people will still suck and die and cry for more nerfs. Untill we reach WoW flex raid level.
You people need to realize that coil was not made to appease the average player. It was made to appease the hardcore players while the rest of the game was made for garba-- er not as good players.
The fact you want the "hardcore" (not that hard) raid to be catered to you is the epitome of entitlement.

[Noshpan]

I would like to add my appreciation for the upcoming adjustments that will be made to the Second Coil. I appreciate the team's efforts. I appreciate this adjustment so that I can swiftly progress through this so I can play with my friends. That's really all that I want to do, is play with them.

[Maxwell]

Coil isnt that bad by itself, but combined with the lock out mechanic it becomes too much of a hassle. The root of coil's problem comes from headache inducing, comunity destroying scheduling issues. So many people are left behind with second coil because they cant get into a static nor can they count on help from their fc (all members being in statics already)

[AdamFyi]

It seems as though most people forget about the middle ground people. There are people who would like content to be eased, yet still keeping the difficulty of the mechanics. Somewhere along the lines of a person that loves the current difficulty, yet doesn't want to try the Savage difficulty because they deem it too challenging. I welcome the easing, but not the nerfing.

This whole discussion made me curious about opposing views, so I revisited the old and pinpoint the nature of the situation and picked some that I think are relevant to the discussion. Now then, before I continue, these posts are quite old and you do not have the right to judge them because opinions change over time. Please understand that before reading on. These are just examples of why people should take into account of the other side of the fence and not just label every raider as some kind of elitist.

**note that these are just snippets from the original posts

T1-T4, Hard Primals, and 4-man dungeons teach nothing now because the second you walk into these encounters at level 50, you are either overgeared for them or 7 other players are overgeared for them. You definitely don't repeat them afterwards because their loot is now worthless. A new player can literally die to the first attack these bosses throw out and get a clear from 7 other veterans doing a roulette or alt relic runs. Back in 2.1 and maybe 2.2 these encounters were challenging learning experience, but now they teach nothing. This is an extremely unfortunate result of overdoing the 'returning players need to catch up' design methodology. Because returning players log back in, have little or no experience, catch up to another red-hot iron wall when they hadn't even beaten the last one at-level, then quit again.

I'd like to reiterate that casuals shouldn't complain about getting things that raiders have, since they don't have the time, effort, skill, or all combined, to do the content that raiders put forth the aforementioned things to do. If they (casuals) get their story mode and gear that wasn't completely worthless and allows them to do the next entry level iteration of raid, that should be good enough for them. Meanwhile raiders get the best of the best to show off (which is how it should be).

The current difficulty in coil is over tuned for their desired player base. I was looking back at fights from Wrath of the Lich King and these are more on par with heroic end game raids than the normal mode ones. The whole echo buff thing feels like a cheap bandaid compared to just having different difficulties for the raids.. Can't beat it on heroic? Beat it on normal and you can still unlock the next binding coil. Beat all of normal mode? Try heroic to get better rewards and easter eggs.

Players being too impatient to wait for the static formation. They join us, looking for a static. After about 2 weeks there's no full group yet, as finding a last tank or healer may be troublesome. They end up leaving the FC and go look elsewhere. Three weeks later, the static is up and running, going through it's first content. What do we see? The player who left is still up in party finder or on the community forums, looking for a static. Even though (s)he could have been part of one, it is their impatience which caused them to miss out.

I have a very busy schedule and I'm only alloted 1 hour a week to play, so I therefore do not have time to progress in any sort of static, but I still subscribe so that means I should be able to clear any content with my already busy schedule. I have a family and raise 3 young children, so I don't have time to clear coil or work on any form of progression, but I still demand for this to happen.

I also here-to-fore condone anyone who can clear content that I cannot clear to be elitist in nature. As soon as they and their team complete a raid that I have not yet completed, they automatically fall under the stringenty adhered to category of elitist.

We should all know that people who clear this content, do not help or never intend to help anyone with getting a clear, and this is written in their code of conduct while they have to "put up with" non-elitists, who they continually belittle us for which I have no valid reason why or if this even happens at all, but I am saying it, so it has now therefore become valid.

Suggestions here arent asking for third coil to be made easier at all, not even what im asking for, Im trying to make sure the difficulty content is maintained, and devs do look at data and do respond to whats happening around them, I want to avoid third coil being made easier and suggesting how to keep it hopefully harder. They could be planning anything, lets not be delusional here, anything can go, thats the nature of mmo development for either way. What I want is to preserve the content we have, and for them to not meddle with it and how to suggest to go about content for those lesser skilled which this thread is about. No one is asking for nerfs to current coil.

I'm also not saying that the average player doesn't deserve decent gear, but - part of the item level curve is a function of learning. Right now, no one is learning anything on the way to their i90 gear, which thrusts them right into stuff like EX primals, T5, and even T6 and beyond. It's like waddling around in the kiddie pool and then being shoved onto the diving board into the deep end - it's intimidating, and frustrating, and actually not a good player experience! 2.0 gave us that sort of learning with decently-difficult (but not extreme hardcore) 4-man dungeons.

I overall do agree with gating fights kinda like T5 does with T6+, but not keeping them gated forever. The purpose of the gates is to make sure people learn how to play well enough that they have a chance in the next tier, but as time goes on, these gates become frustrating obstacles for obsolete content that very few people run. I think the best timing to remove the lockout on T6 would actually be 1 patch before T6 gets nerfed so that everyone who is so inclined may try T6+ as is before everything starts getting wonky with echo.

[Exstal]

Dang, I wrote a boo-boo of a sentence. Re-reading, it's not worded correctly. I'd like to fix it (after this post I'm going to go edit that one)!

I'd like to reiterate that casuals shouldn't complain about getting things that raiders have since they don't have the time, effort, skill, or all combined, to do the content that raiders do while putting forth the aforementioned categories in said content. If they (casuals) get their story mode and gear that wasn't completely worthless and allows them to do the next entry level iteration of raid, that should be good enough for them. Meanwhile raiders get the best of the best to show off (which is how it should be).

[Alexander_Dragonfang]

This whole coil casual v/s hardcore raider issue is completely and 110% SE`s fault.
The Coil themselves fail at a lot of things for the sake of perpetuate content at the cost of challenge, fun and progression for everyone, one of the biggest issues here is the time lockout, it just ruins the party for everybody.

The lack of an story mode (which should have been since day 0 considering how important are Coil events for the whole Story) is already a flaw big enough, the lockout that keeps casual players from organized raiding since hardcore raiders demand more time than casual raiders can even play, this creates a problem where the casual raiders can`t even practice to progress in the content, which just lets them to be rejected on stablished raid groups for lack of experience and to stack to PF groups.

For most players, the only true challenge of coils is actually finding a party to do it, since in all honesty, nothing there is "hard" (the day i see random RNG patterns on battle and not step by step dances people can come here to talk about skill, having a normal work memory, good server ping and a group of 7 other players on the same conditions is not a "skill" is more than anything, a timesink).

So, coils themselves should not be eased up. Timelock outs have to go, Story and Savage mode have to be added, ECHO HAS TO GO AWAY TOO.

-Remove Echo.
-Add Story (no drop, longer casts, lower HP, atk, def enemies) to all coils.
-Add Savage to all coils.
-Remove weekly lockout.
-Keep weekly drop system.

Stop trying to elongate the game ruining everybody experiences and let us have fun with the game, i can promise that will keep more players loging everyday than just restricting them to weekly sessions. Hardcores will go for dem savages and normal runs while gearing and facing the challenges, more casual players will do story, learn the fights and have a way to actually practice them and prepare for the challenge ahead, no one feels like content is being dumbed down, like "not worthy" players are getting handouts, like you have just 1 day a week to log in... Seriously, this whole weekly lockout thing is just a dying philosophy. Has been proved to death, players stick to games when they are fun, not time consuming. Most players not loging daily are those who are actually beating the content and cant repeat it or look for more challenge.

[Marukoban]

I'd be happy if SE removes the lockout and make previous coil easier so that people who re-sub or new players can catch up, but I wish people would stop with the excuse of "being good player but can't find static".
If there are so many of those good player without static, why not start a new one? After all finding 7 out of many shouldn't be hard to do.
If you and 2-3 other persons are the odd one out in your FC, nothing stops you from finding member/static from outside your FC.

And I've seen people throwing around statement that static is a privilege.
Being in a static is not a privilege, it is something that you need to work for, like everything else in life (and everything else in this game too). No static happens automatically to anyone ever.
Every single person who is in a static goes through the process of either seeking for a static or starting a new one by recruiting people.
Before someone says about having family, life, work, study, etc, everyone has family, life, work, study, etc.
It's about how you want to utilize your play time. Lazy people will say they can't find static when in truth they haven't even tried yet.
In most cases, what separates people with and without static is only the effort to get into one.