Can we just have the Wrath of the Lich King Raiding Scheme?

[cryptic_angel]

I really don't want to belittle your post, but your whole argument revolves around "it should remain special/exclusive" without giving any solid reason. What's the benefit of keeping raids locked to the hardcore? What's the drawback of creating a second difficulty that would notinterfere with the hard mode, considering they would have different rewards? How does it help the community or the game to keep things like that?



They work with numbers, they know how many people haven't cleared second coil, they have enough data gathered from other content to know how to make an alternate fight that can be cleared by more people (not everyone, just more people) and having different difficulty levels is not something new to games.

I hate feeling like all the effort, time, and gil I put into clearing SCoB is only for S%$s and giggles. HA vanity gear is only a reward if you get any. Our raid static has never seen a HA caster body and we still only have seen half of the HA weapons that can drop.

If people really want an easy mode coil and for ff14 ARR to take up the WotLK raiding model, you all should be supporting an ilvl bump for SCoB gear.

That's what allowed the raiding model to work in WotLK was differentiated gear ilvls. At the end of the day, many raiders care about gear and that should be an incentive in tiered raiding difficulty.

I for one want to keep hard content rolling and for it to remain intact, for it to remain intact, you need something to give to those lesser skilled, a dedicated easy mode, regardless of how you feel about gear, will keep the content me and you do intact.

There is no reason to keep old hard content in this game intact. People don't go back and relish in the difficulty. Raiders move on to the new raid and non-raiders go obtain all the catch up gear. Keeping coil difficult past it's prime would serve no purpose in this game.

People can see SCoB when the nerfs come out.

[raelgun]

There is no reason to keep old hard content in this game intact. People don't go back and relish in the difficulty. Raiders more on to the new raid and non-raiders go obtain all the catch up gear. Keeping coil difficult past it's prime would serve no purpose in this game.

People can see SCoB when the nerfs come out.

I dont just refer to older content, Im also referring to future content, whats stopping SE from designing 3rd coil normal mode to be easier then 2nd coil ?
What happens currently can affect what occurs later, this is exactly what I want to avoid, dragonsoul was made damn easy as a result of the difficulty setting of the prior tiers, my raid group was annoyed by this on first week as we actually cleared all the bosses in the first week.
Due to those of lesser skill, their progression in the past tiers affected our raiding experience, if they had something just for themselves, that wouldnt of happened.
youre also forgetting about potential nerfs to current content, thats always in the minds of the devs in times like these.

[ZohnoReecho]

It's not an easy dungeon. It's just that people are doing the dungeon with an ilvl almost twice its requirement. Case and point, I thought they removed the flies from the wall encounter, but it turns out we're just killing it so fast they don't even spawn. Same thing happens with the glowy death balls on final boss. The boss dies so fast he doesn't even hit phase 3 to use it anymore. Therefore, it doesn't matter how interesting an encounter they make because the ilvl will rip it a new one the second ilvl hits critical mass.

By the way, that wall encounter was supposed to teach new players to watch for cast bars, max their dps, and avoid falling to their death. How can the wall encounter accomplish that goal when new players can deck themselves out in ilvl90 equipment shortly after hitting the level cap? The vertical progression problem aids the destruction of the ladder needed to turn a new player into a competent raider, so people have difficulty dealing with the harder end game encounters. The only way to keep the ladder current in vertical progression is with multiple difficulty levels or two separate dungeons that cover the same kind of encounters in the current content.

Then SE should just stop removing requirements to access fights (see leviathan) and making such a catch-up patch if, as you say, people should learn something before accessing stronger equip that give them access to harder fights.

Remove the dumb soldiery system and make it so people MUST face harder content lil by lil if they wanna progress equip and battlewise.
If instead of teaching people what to do they allow them to skip everything, what and when will they learn? It's like giving a motorbike to someone that never drived a 2wheels. What do you think will happen?

But no. People gotta rush to the top and then ask to crash down the first wall they meet.

People can see SCoB when the nerfs come out.

That is the terrible game design that should be avoided, not nerfing old content, but locking people from content until its outdated, an eternal "catch up" game that would be solved by tiered difficulty.

none is locking them out. they are doing everything themselves…

[Alukah]

I hate feeling like all the effort, time, and gil I put into clearing SCoB is only for S%$s and giggles. HA vanity gear is only a reward if you get any. Our raid static has never seen a HA caster body and we still only have seen half of the HA weapons that can drop.

If people really want an easy mode coil and for ff14 ARR to take up the WotLK raiding model, you all should be supporting an ilvl bump for SCoB gear.

That's what allowed the raiding model to work in WotLK was differentiated gear ilvls. At the end of the day, many raiders care about gear and that should be an incentive in tiered raiding difficulty.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if there was an item level difference between normal and hard mode other than the weapon, and I don't think many supporters would mind either, as long as there's a stepping stone into hard raiding and more mid content.

People can see SCoB when the nerfs come out.

That is the terrible game design that should be avoided, not nerfing old content, but locking people from content until its outdated, an eternal "catch up" game that would be solved by tiered difficulty.

[cryptic_angel]

I dont just refer to older content, Im also referring to future content, whats stopping SE from designing 3rd coil normal mode to be easier then 2nd coil ?What happens currently can affect what occurs later, this is exactly what I want to avoid, dragonsoul was made damn easy as a result of the difficulty setting of the prior tiers, my raid group was annoyed by this on first week as we actually cleared all the bosses in the first week.
Due to those of lesser skill, their progression in the past tiers affected our raiding experience, if they had something just for themselves, that wouldnt of happened.
youre also forgetting about potential nerfs to current content, thats always in the minds of the devs in times like these.

So far, SE has shown two things as it pertains to current raid content.

Outside of the twister nerf, SE does not nerf fights in the middle of their lifespan.

Difficulty in raids has increased from SCoB from the first BCoB. Why would you be afraid that the TCoB will be easier than the SCoB? There is no evidence to support such a notion yet.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if there was an item level difference between normal and hard mode other than the weapon, and I don't think many supporters would mind either, as long as there's a stepping stone into hard raiding and more mid content.



That is the terrible game design that should be avoided, not nerfing old content, but locking people from content until its outdated, an eternal "catch up" game that would be solved by tiered difficulty.

That is the style of MMO's the eternal "catch up" as you call it is just another form the the gear/content treadmill all players are subject to. Raiders tend to sprint on that treadmill where as more casual players tend to walk. Why does it matter when you see the content as long as you are seeing it before the next expansion?

[raelgun]

And no evidence was known prior to dragonsoul that it was much easier until we went in and did it, Im happy to be wrong, but then again you have no evidence either it will either stay the current difficulty or harder, Im basing this on past experience and this current raiding model is more like cataclysms raiding so far, first 2 raids at first were considered hard, many people couldnt do them, blizzard responded with dragonsoul which was way easier.
Yes SE and Blizz arent the same, but again, whats stopping them, nerfs can happen at any point really, we are only half way in for 2nd coil, anything can happen, I always keep my mind open to this.

[cryptic_angel]

And no evidence was known prior to dragonsoul that it was much easier until we went in and did it, Im happy to be wrong, but then again you have no evidence either it will either stay the current difficulty or harder, Im basing this on past experience and this current raiding model is more like cataclysms raiding so far, first 2 raids at first were considered hard, many people couldnt do them, blizzard responded with dragonsoul which was way easier.
Yes SE and Blizz arent the same, but again, whats stopping them, nerfs can happen at any point really, we are only half way in for 2nd coil, anything can happen, I always keep my mind open to this.

Any suggestions here are not going to change the difficulty of the TCoB. We are way too close to the raid patch for them to redo the entire raid system in pursuit of maintaining a level of difficulty we no nothing about.

[raelgun]

Suggestions here arent asking for third coil to be made easier at all, not even what im asking for, Im trying to make sure the difficulty content is maintained, and devs do look at data and do respond to whats happening around them, I want to avoid third coil being made easier and suggesting how to keep it hopefully harder. They could be planning anything, lets not be delusional here, anything can go, thats the nature of mmo development for either way.
Blizz shoe horned in flex mode towards the end mists, thats quite the difference in raid system to what theyve done during an expansion, like I said, anything can happen, but again, what I want is to preserve the content we have, and for them to not meddle with it and how to suggest to go about content for those lesser skilled which this thread is about. No one is asking for nerfs to current coil.

[cryptic_angel]

Suggestions here arent asking for third coil to be made easier at all, not even what im asking for, Im trying to make sure the difficulty content is maintained, and devs do look at data and do respond to whats happening around them, I want to avoid third coil being made easier and suggesting how to keep it hopefully harder. They could be planning anything, lets not be delusional here, anything can go, thats the nature of mmo development for either way.
Blizz shoe horned in flex mode towards the end mists, thats quite the difference in raid system to what theyve done during an expansion, like I said, anything can happen, but again, what I want is to preserve the content we have, and for them to not meddle with it and how to suggest to go about content for those lesser skilled which this thread is about. No one is asking for nerfs to current coil.

There is always brutal coil.

[raelgun]

Brutal coil is the answer to those who are struggling with current normal mode coil ?
If you are saying if you want something harder theres brutal mode, have no issues for something harder then the norm, this thread is largely for those wanting the other end of that scale, also, just to say, you said they wont do anything to change the current raid system, isnt brutal coil contradictory to your statements ?
Heck if they added easy mode, I personally wont touch that, but Im still up for giving something to the lesser skilled to do, also means can be bothered less by them in game, also reduce the merc runs going out as well, man hate seeing those.