Seems we have an answer on the 'lore' vs. 'new player friendly' NIN option ^^

[Tupsi]

Don't know why anyone would think it would have been any different to begin with. Guy A "Look at all these other classes that set a precedent. Guy B: "pfffft that doesn't mean anything. Clearly they'll do something completely different this time."

So dumb.

Yeah, because Rogue and Ninja existed since 1.0's lore and 2.0's lore - Since you know, you actually know nothing of these professions until you meet the Domans, which weren't even known of until that update. Besides, they're likely updating the intro main scenario quests lines (up to 15) which is why they mentioned you have to do at least up till then to get the Rogue quest, that way they can actually make logical sense of suddenly having these professions without having to do the main scenario through 2.3.

[Santherelle]

I beg to differ.



He just colored his hair.

I thought of the same guy too!

[Tiggy]

Illogical post. They are doing something different this time. The debate (or question, rather) is/was the extent of the change. So yeah.

The opening post suggested people considered it would be drastically different. Like you have to have a job to 50 different. Waiting till level 10 to unlock isn't that different. You simply can't select it as a starting fresh character job but can unlock it at 10 (maybe 15 who knows) like every other job you didn't select from the beginning. Some of the theories for how it might work utterly threw precedent out the window. What we have here fits within the same scheme we are used to with a minor tweak meaning what I said wasn't that illogical at all. It was more reasonable than expecting a 100% different system anyway.

As a software developer myself I know that once you have a convention you tend to stick to it or only make minor tweaks. That's exactly what they did here. When new features come to the game I wish people would theorize how it works using the existing game as a guide instead of their hopes and dreams. Too frequently do people throw existing conventions and precedent out the window in hopes of coming up with what they will do. More often than not it will be similar to existing features.

[Felis]

0_o Curious George and the BLM trainers and the two Padjal kiddos are so very deeply connected to the lore?
Part of the point is that Ninjas don't even come from Eorzea in the first place.

The 2 Padjal kids are the younger sister and brother from Kan-E-Senna and part of the Gridania lore.

Besides, they're likely updating the intro main scenario quests lines (up to 15) which is why they mentioned you have to do at least up till then to get the Rogue quest, that way they can actually make logical sense of suddenly having these professions without having to do the main scenario through 2.3.

I don't know why they would need to update the lv1-15 storyquests. The devs could also simple put in a new quest for lv 10 that give you a password as a reward to enter the underworld of Limsa Lominsa (there are already some places in Limsa since 2.0 where a gate block the way while the area behind the gate is still passable on the map). The underworld exist since a long time in secret, according to the 2.2 story.

I think it would be like it is now:
Lv10 starter class quest - unlock the Armory
Lv15 story quest - allow you to travel to Limsa or from Limsa away

It worked since last year. No reason to change it now, even if Rogue is not available as a starter class.

[ziddyt]

There is no precedent. This is the first post-2.0 job. It's the first and only job that ties directly into post 2.0 lore. There is reason to believe that might have had some effect on the class and/or job requirements.

Regardless, nothing you just said proves that you weren't wrong. It is different, if only slightly, in contradiction to your post. So yeah, black and white. It might be less so if you had included any leeway in your previous post, but you didn't.

[Tiggy]

There is no precedent. This is the first post-2.0 job. It's the first and only job that ties directly into post 2.0 lore. There is reason to believe that might have some effect on the class and/or job requirements.

Regardless, nothing you just said proves that you weren't wrong. It is different, if only slightly, in contradiction to your post. So yeah, black and white. It might be less so if you had included any leeway in your previous post, but you didn't.

Every single job in the game is a precedent. Being a 2.0 job doesn't suddenly change the entire job/class/quest structure. So the story introduced Yigiri and ninja. A new player doesn't need to know the origin and can come to learn it later so making the story line a requirement is entirely unnecessary and only a hindrance to new players. Being the first post 2.0 job isn't enough reason to change the entire 2.0 job dynamic. If it was 3.0 that would be one thing since they could revamp the whole system a bit, but this was expecting too much for Ninja.

Expecting vastly different situations is what I didn't understand. Completely forgoing being similar to existing systems. I never said small tweaks were unreasonable. I could have used more specific verbiage I suppose. I just never see a reason to completely ignore established systems. Of course there will be heavy similarities.

It was the same way with housing. I had many discussions with people about why they would use the same exact housing zones used for FCs. No one listened to my reasoning. In the end the simplest answer won out. Why make 2 zones that do the exact same thing? The answer was they didn't. So in this context I say the same thing. Why make 2 completely or extremely different job structures? The answer was they didn't because it wouldn't make any sense from a development point of view.

[Orilo]

Should not matter for most of us, I have all DoW and DoM above 30, so I can level it if I want straight through. PLD is still my main and where I sink my time in, but I dabble in all the combat jobs.

[Tupsi]

As a software developer myself

Which ever changing MMORPG did you work on? Also, if you know anything of Square or Enix you'll know they'll gladly throw out 'precedents' at the request of the community, as seen with 1.x and ARR development. Notice how you had to redo quests even if you were legacy? You know even though you were a 50 Botanist you still had to "become" a Botanist in ARR?

The precedent is actually in FFXI - You could choose the base classes that came with the game, like in XIV, but everything else released after launch you had to unlock via a quest and in XIV ARR, you can't even switch until you progress till around the 10/15 main scenario quest.

[Tiggy]

Which ever changing MMORPG did you work on? Also, if you know anything of Square or Enix you'll know they'll gladly throw out 'precedents' at the request of the community, as seen with 1.x and ARR development. Notice how you had to redo quests even if you were legacy? You know even though you were a 50 Botanist you still had to "become" a Botanist in ARR?

The precedent is actually in FFXI - You could choose the base classes that came with the game, like in XIV, but everything else released after launch you had to unlock via a quest and in XIV ARR, you can't even switch until you progress till around the 10/15 main scenario quest.

Precedents from XI are irrelevant here, and ARR changing everything is irrelevant to the 1.28 changes since it sets a brand new precedent for 2.0 and beyond. This is entirely within the context of 2.0 and 2.0 alone. This isn't FFXI and this isn't FFXIV 1.28. It's FFXIV ARR. It has it's own rules that are different to the two previous games.

Lastly, I don't have to work on this game or another MMO to tell you how developers think. Reduce code. Reuse code. Get more done with less work. It's why we put so much effort into developing robust platforms. You're kidding yourself if you think this is any different. Thinking that having never worked on an MMO means I don't understand basic concepts of software development shows how you really don't understand software development very well.

I don't know why you're all being so defensive. Are you harboring some repressed hope it will change or something?

I simply voiced my lack of understanding why people thought it would be so drastically different using my POV as a software developer as my starting point. So far I don't think you guys understand where I'm coming from and you just want to prove me wrong or something. Despite the fact the quest structure is indeed extremely similar to what we are used to.

[ziddyt]

Defensive? You're the only one who came into this topic and said "wow I can't believe people thought something different than I did, so dumb," and proceeded to pretend like nothing ever changes in an mmo.

Pointing out that you're wrong is not defensive. I don't care one way or the other how they implement the job, it's just "so dumb" to not realize there are legitimate arguments for both sides.