[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[Einheri]

Can we all just ignore Akiza?
We're just feeding her at this rate and she doesn't seem to want to be reasonable or logic (unless she can twist it)? :B

Cant agree more. I have posted on magic, franchise history, status effects, FF14 game lore. All with links to help provide details. Akiza continues to make up information and speculation to make her points.

Case in point...

In Final Fantasy Tactics the Arcanist and Time Mage overlap in terms of skills and abilities since Arcanist is attuned to Dark and Gravity. Arcanist has no affinity for Bio, Miasma and Virus so Square should just give those spells back to Black Mage and optimize the Final Fantasy Arcanist for mmorpg's. Besides a lot of the Arcanist abilities got moved to the Time Mage so essentially the Arcanist and Time Maall should have the same abilities.

Shadow Flare is the Dark version of Black Mage's Flare so they should function the same.

Exstal already pointed out that there is no Arcanist class in FFT or any FF but FF14, and I have already posted on the franchise history of Magic and Shadow Flare in particular.

[Dwill]

Cant agree more. I have posted on magic, franchise history, status effects, FF14 game lore. All with links to help provide details.

Some of us appreciate it, myself included!

[MartaDemireux]

Exstal already pointed out that there is no Arcanist class any FF but FF14

I believe Akiza means to say Final Fantasy Tactcis A2. There was indeed Arcanist in that game. Their skills were:

Syphon: Drains MP from the target.
Drain: " HP " " ".
Death: Instant death on a unit.
Gravity: Deals damage equal to 1/4 the target's HP.
Graviga: " " " " 1/2 " " ".
Lv. 3 Dark: Deals dark damage to all units with a level that is a multiple of 3.
Lv. 5 Haste: Hastes all units with a level that is a multiple of 5.
Lv. ? Shadow flare: Deals dark damage to all units that share the last digit of the level of the caster. Incl caster.

So not to stir the pot but Akiza is correct in that Arcanist in FFTA2 did share spells usually associated with Time Mage (Gravity/Graviga) and that some abilities from it were used or inspired by it for FFXIV (Shadow Flare, Syphon/Drain). She just had the wrong game title.

While I don't agree that SMN should be given more TIM-like tools (I really want TIM from either its own class or from THM) I do have to stand up for her on principle alone in that FFXIV's Arcanist does take some ideas from FFTA2's Arcanist which also happened to have some overlap with classic Time Magic which is understandable as FFTA2's Arcanist required 2 Time Mage abilities to unlock.

To build on that, the Time Mage from FFTA2 learned some abilities similar to our ACN. Among their repetoire were an AoE Slow (we see this in the additional effect to Shadow Flare) and Extend which extends buff/debuff timers (we see this with Emerald Carbuncle and by extension Garuda-egi).

Her train of thought should be clear to anyone with moderate FF experience or access to FFWiki. We need to stop the bullying/singling out on this forum, reputations aside.

[Dwill]

snip.

Syphon and Drain were merged as one we have it, it's called Energy Drain. The Gravity spell line is broken by default when applied to a MMO setting so no go on this. Haste is applied to people via Selene, which is a pet summon via Arcane Magick in this game. Elemantal Wheel isn't used in this game so Lv.3 Dark is useless. Death, I don't think this warrants an explanation and we have Shadow Flare, in an actual balanced form that matches the summoner playstyle. To my knowledge, only the Haste was AoE in FFT:A2, slow was single target. They also have Quick, which is doesn't really work in a MMO setting. I could see them work Stop into Tri-Disaster and removed the bind effect from it.

The reason people find Akiza's suggestions terrible, and with good reason, is that they don't take the aspect that this is a MMO. A lot of stuff that works in single player game are horribly broken when translated into a MMO setting so they either need to be reworked or not implemented at all, the latter being better in my opinion seeing as the former just won't be the same thing as player are used to.

[Akiza]

Syphon and Drain were merged as one we have it, it's called Energy Drain. The Gravity spell line is broken by default when applied to a MMO setting so no go on this. Haste is applied to people via Selene, which is a pet summon via Arcane Magick in this game. Elemantal Wheel isn't used in this game so Lv.3 Dark is useless. Death, I don't think this warrants an explanation and we have Shadow Flare, in an actual balanced form that matches the summoner playstyle. To my knowledge, only the Haste was AoE in FFT:A2, slow was single target. They also have Quick, which is doesn't really work in a MMO setting. I could see them work Stop into Tri-Disaster and removed the bind effect from it.

The reason people find Akiza's suggestions terrible, and with good reason, is that they don't take the aspect that this is a MMO. A lot of stuff that works in single player game are horribly broken when translated into a MMO setting so they either need to be reworked or not implemented at all, the latter being better in my opinion seeing as the former just won't be the same thing as player are used to.

Gravity couldv'e been reworked as a DoT ability since other MMO's seem to balance them fine
Dark works similar to Fire so the Developers can implement that spell
The only spells they can't implement from FFTA2 are Slow and Haste

[Mjytresz]

Syphon and Drain were merged as one we have it, it's called Energy Drain. The Gravity spell line is broken by default when applied to a MMO setting so no go on this. Haste is applied to people via Selene, which is a pet summon via Arcane Magick in this game. Elemantal Wheel isn't used in this game so Lv.3 Dark is useless. Death, I don't think this warrants an explanation and we have Shadow Flare, in an actual balanced form that matches the summoner playstyle. To my knowledge, only the Haste was AoE in FFT:A2, slow was single target. They also have Quick, which is doesn't really work in a MMO setting. I could see them work Stop into Tri-Disaster and removed the bind effect from it.

The reason people find Akiza's suggestions terrible, and with good reason, is that they don't take the aspect that this is a MMO. A lot of stuff that works in single player game are horribly broken when translated into a MMO setting so they either need to be reworked or not implemented at all, the latter being better in my opinion seeing as the former just won't be the same thing as player are used to.

That argument is terrible for various reasons.
Allow me to explain:

First off, Gravity in the SP games dealt damage equivalent to a percentage of HP. There's nothing stating "If you're adding Gravity it has to be one of the 400 incarnations we've seen previously in the series." You can add a spell, change specifics, and keep the theme. There's nothing wrong with something like Stop, Haste, or even Gravity if you do it right. Just considering that Stop almost never worked on bosses, Selene's "Haste" right now has mediocre benefit, and Gravity can have its damage application and cooldown managed while still keeping theme.

Then again, I forgot which thread I'm posting in.

The sad part is the devs took two really strong class designs, melded them together, and got a 50+ page thread of bickering over designs from single player games. If I remember correctly, didn't FFIX have a character that stabbed people with a fork and ate them? Great job, guys.

DoT classes are pretty strong. Pet classes are pretty strong. They should've remained separate. There aren't many MMOs that combine class designs and pull it off well. Right now, SMN is something like 70% DoT class and 30% pet class. You're forced into this hole by default. You're not capable of full DPS with DoTs alone and you're not capable of pulling off a pet class effectively. Remind me why these designs were combined?

The best solution would be to just break them up. Remember summoners in the old games who were designed to just... y'know... summon things? There's no reason that can't work. Have SMN with a wide array of summon skills that can buff, debuff, and DPS. Something like casting Ifrit would AoE within 5 yalms and leave a burning effect.
For the DoT aspect, tons of other games have pulled that off. Make them squishy with built-in sustain and not just DoTs but DoT based spells (IE - Fester).

I feel like having the option of what I want to play is a lot more important than having one well-rounded compromise.

[Dwill]

Snip

Heh, I think having Gravity do anything else than what we've seen in past Final Fantasy games would pretty much kill the theme (speaking on a personal basis). Not saying they can't do it but I don't think it would look like a Final Fantasy Demi effect if they ever introduce it in with any other effect that the broken one.

Selene's Haste-like effect being mediocre for anyone not a Black Mage is due to how Spell Speed and Skill Speed work in this game and honestly, I am all for Square Enix fixing this. Minus Black Mage, everyone tries to avoid Skill/Spell Speed if they can and that means something is totally wrong with the stat itself. Apparently, they are going to fix this in the expansion so let's cross our fingers on this one.

While I agree that they could have taken a totally different direction on the job, they didn't and honestly, every guess we take at their motives would purely be conjecture. The thing is that unless the job becomes broken, a total rework is highly unlikely so the best course of action to improve the job as a whole would be to focus on our already existing strength and weaknesses to see what could be changed.

[dragonfire8974]

Snp.

No offense, but you obviously haven't been in this thread long. A single classic time Mage spell does not equivocate ffta2 arcanist with time magic. Shadow flare is a monster ability, same with lvl.x stuff in the more broad ff universe. Drain, death, osmose are all classic black magic spells. While we do have siphon and drain wrapped in one, as well as shadow flare, this does not connect the arcanist in ffxiv with time magic. Read some of his responses, especially in the last couple pages

[MartaDemireux]

.

I said what I said with the knowledge of her previous posts. It's no coincidence that FFXIV's ACN shares abilities with FFTA2's ACN. They're the only 2 ACN in the franchise. However the FFTA2 ACN did learn classic Time Magic (3 out of its 8 abilities) if not in name then at least in effect. FFTA2's ACN was also directly unlocked by learning Time Magic. That means FFTA2's ACN is related to Time Magic and by extension FFXIV's ACN is related to it as well having been at least partially based on FFTA2's ACN. FFTA2's ACN is effectively a combination of Time Mage and Black Mage and should your ACN in that game only level in that one line of progression they'll only have access to Black Magic and Time Magic for their second set of abilities. The correlation is all there, FFXIV simply took the Black Magic aspect over the Time Magic aspect for its ACN but did include some Time Magic via additional effects and pet abilities. Future class abilities could in fact expand on the Time Magic aspect ACN has had attributed to it in it's previous appearance. Before Time Magic was it's own specialization it was both White and Black Magic. If we look to Rydia as the closest incarnation to our current Summoner we can see that some of her Black Magic is turned into Time Magic such as Stop.

As far as Gravity is concerned, Mjytresz is correct in that it wouldn't have to have the exact effects that it did in the series. FFXI is a good example of this as it had the Gravity line of spells but they functioned differently. They slowed the enemy's movement speed and reduced their evasion. Even FFTA2's ACN's Death could be brought to FFXIV's ACN. It could be changed to sacrfiice your pet in a new mechanic (fairy's could be a burst AoE heal, egi's could be a burst AoE attack) or to grant Aetherflow charges etc.

There are many people who believe that people shouldn't stop bullying but people should teach children, and by extension adults, to defend themselves. You'll never end bullying, but that won't stop people from trying.

I realize this but what of those who cannot defend themselves due to mental and developmental disabilities? People online like to believe everyone is perfectly capable of anything they themselves are capable of but it's simply not the case. I've met players with varying degrees of autism for example that literally cannot defend themselves or learn how to defend themselves.The thing with these forums is that we do not know who has outlying circumstances and as such should avoid bullying on them. Bully whomever you want in person you know has the capability to learn how to defend themselves but keep it off the internet where you do not know who you are talking to and what they are or are not capable of.

[dragonfire8974]

@marta

You're taking a tertiary connection between ffxiv and time Mage. None of the acn abilities in ffxiv have any connection to time magic, just a name connection to another class from a side chain of games that works very different from all other ff franchises that shares 35% of its abilities with the time Mage, if that as lvl 5 haste is normally a monster ability. That's why the connection doesn't work.

Acn has ruin, and a number of black Magic spells. No connection to time magic aside from that very tenuous one diagrammed above