Archer - Auto Attack

[Dacen]

Honest to God people. My following post is with all due respect...

I've been leveling up ARC and it's just fine. If you really are archer buffs, then think of the time it takes to really load an arrow and fire a shot in RL. =P

But I digress...

About time there's less whining and more thinking with your heads. You're all so selfish, put yourself in the developer point of view.

If you were a dev, and were implementing an auto attack for archer, would you even consider for a second the possibility that having a ranged auto attack with infinite arrows, lower dmg, etc. would take away from the class rather than give to it? You'd just engage, pop a bunch of infinite AA shots before you stack your buffs and blast a high damage TP skill...wouldn't that be boring? Oh and let's not even think about initiating TP skills in between all that ranged AA madness, don't you think that would skew the damage in your favour a little TOO much? Then other DDs would have to be re-balanced again.

Think of what other DDs would think if they were useless because you had a ranged AA stacking on TP as ARC. Meanwhile, neither CON nor THM had those ranged AAs. It would entice more drama.

Ok, so then your solution to this would be to give ARC, CON, THM all ranged AAs. So what do LNC, GLA, and PUG get? Nothing? Those throwing weapons perhaps? Oh but, why do you guys get ranged AAs and why would LNC, GLA and PUG have to BUY their ranged attacks?

My point in case, stop thinking about yourselves and think about the bigger picture, then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to jump on FFXIV's devs, and realize that these changes are necessary.

The lesser of 2 evils are being chosen to balance this game and make it the way it should be, what a lot of people are doing now are whining and choosing the would be greater of 2 evils, which is why you are not developing this game.

Instead, why not be positive and ADD to this game and to the community by giving helpful tips and advice to newer people coming into the game instead of dashing their hopes and bursting their bubbles? A lot more people would appreciate it, the FFXIV community would improve and you won't be flamed on these forums for just being a troll

Peace.

[Capita]

About time there's less whining and more thinking with your heads. You're all so selfish, put yourself in the developer point of view.

If you were a dev, and were implementing an auto attack for archer, would you even consider for a second the possibility that having a ranged auto attack with infinite arrows, lower dmg, etc. would take away from the class rather than give to it? You'd just engage, pop a bunch of infinite AA shots before you stack your buffs and blast a high damage TP skill...wouldn't that be boring? Oh and let's not even think about initiating TP skills in between all that ranged AA madness, don't you think that would skew the damage in your favour a little TOO much? Then other DDs would have to be re-balanced again.

I take it you've never played a game where Archers had ranged AA?

It adds some great versatility and strategy, knowing when the right time was to AA and when not to. Good Archers knew how to control their AA so they wouldn't break CC, or so they wouldn't use up a buff.

Infinite arrows isn't something I'd like. I like the idea of having to pay for damage, but having more versatile damage as a tradeoff. I don't see how a ranged AA would take away from the class at all.

So to answer your question: If I were a Dev, I'd add a ranged AA and modify abilities to work in conjunction with it instead of against it. And force melee if a mob gets close, which would then force skillful play from the player since they'd have to learn how to keep a mob within shooting range. I'd also make it so you can't shoot while moving, so you'd have to learn how to move efficiently if you're fighting a mobile fight to maximize your damage.

The way the Devs implemented AA in this game is just them being too lazy to implement something that's more exciting and rewarding if done properly.

No offense, but you should play other games before you make posts like these knocking ranged AA.

[Dacen]

I take it you've never played a game where Archers had ranged AA?

It adds some great versatility and strategy, knowing when the right time was to AA and when not to. Good Archers knew how to control their AA so they wouldn't break CC, or so they wouldn't use up a buff.

Infinite arrows isn't something I'd like. I like the idea of having to pay for damage, but having more versatile damage as a tradeoff. I don't see how a ranged AA would take away from the class at all.

So to answer your question: If I were a Dev, I'd add a ranged AA and modify abilities to work in conjunction with it instead of against it. And force melee if a mob gets close, which would then force skillful play from the player since they'd have to learn how to keep a mob within shooting range. I'd also make it so you can't shoot while moving, so you'd have to learn how to move efficiently if you're fighting a mobile fight to maximize your damage.

The way the Devs implemented AA in this game is just them being too lazy to implement something that's more exciting and rewarding if done properly.

No offense, but you should play other games before you make posts like these knocking ranged AA.

Indeed, I have played other games, and yes I understand that ranged AA can work...with those games. This isn't "other games" this is FFXIV. Just as the mechanics for this game vary to the other games, as does the behaviour and skill sets of classes.

You are telling me to play other games before bashing ranged AA, I was never bashing ranged AA. As a matter of fact, if there was any bashing, it's to the reaction of others on this forum. I was simply stating that ranged AA would not work in this game.

And yes, I have played other games with ranged AA. Perhaps you are a WoW player who decided to try this game? It's because I have played other games with ranged AA that it makes sense to me that perhaps it would not work in this game as it did not happen with FFXI either.

You are comparing apples to oranges mi'lady. Don't seek to turn approval for ranged AA based off of experiences from other games. Doing so would only mean you want to implement other MMOs into this one, and therefore, turn this into a melting pot of other MMOs as opposed to keeping it FFXIV.

However, having said that, I do like some of the constructive ideas that you stated, such as:

since they'd have to learn how to keep a mob within shooting range. I'd also make it so you can't shoot while moving, so you'd have to learn how to move efficiently if you're fighting a mobile fight to maximize your damage.

I prefer to see (and I'm sure everyone can attest) more posts like that as opposed to people just trolling and degrading the community. I'm sure SE appreciates these more too, because then, based on community feedback, perhaps we WILL see such changes. As such, these are what Original Posts should comprise of. Good stuff =)

[Capita]

Indeed, I have played other games, and yes I understand that ranged AA can work...with those games. This isn't "other games" this is FFXIV. Just as the mechanics for this game vary to the other games, as does the behaviour and skill sets of classes.

You are telling me to play other games before bashing ranged AA, I was never bashing ranged AA. As a matter of fact, if there was any bashing, it's to the reaction of others on this forum. I was simply stating that ranged AA would not work in this game.

I don't see why it wouldn't work for this game. This isn't a turn-based RPG, nor is it a fast-paced arcade-style RPG; both of which could afford gameplay without auto attack. This is a slow-paced game with absolutely no negative effects should ranged AA be added.

And yes, I have played other games with ranged AA. Perhaps you are a WoW player who decided to try this game? It's because I have played other games with ranged AA that it makes sense to me that perhaps it would not work in this game as it did not happen with FFXI either.

You are comparing apples to oranges mi'lady. Don't seek to turn approval for ranged AA based off of experiences from other games. Doing so would only mean you want to implement other MMOs into this one, and therefore, turn this into a melting pot of other MMOs as opposed to keeping it FFXIV.

I played FFXI when it was released and was probably one of the most hardcore players in that game. It didn't have ranged AA, but that doesn't mean it wasn't needed. There was a reason Rangers macro'd /ra. It was to simulate a ranged AA because they weren't provided one. I don't know any Ranger who enjoyed having to /ra to have an AA-like effect (though limited due to small quiver sizes). You can't say it wouldn't work in FFXI just because the game didn't have it, because the players sure felt the need for it.

The only reason why ranged AA won't work for this game is because it's implemented really badly. It should be a toggle bound to a hotkey instead of continuous due to the large amount of break-on-hit CC. But even then, it's easy enough to detarget a CC'd mob before an AA goes off.

[Esk]

About time there's less whining and more thinking with your heads. You're all so selfish, put yourself in the developer point of view.

If you were a dev, and were implementing an auto attack for archer, would you even consider for a second the possibility that having a ranged auto attack with infinite arrows, lower dmg, etc. would take away from the class rather than give to it? You'd just engage, pop a bunch of infinite AA shots before you stack your buffs and blast a high damage TP skill...wouldn't that be boring? Oh and let's not even think about initiating TP skills in between all that ranged AA madness, don't you think that would skew the damage in your favour a little TOO much? Then other DDs would have to be re-balanced again.

Think of what other DDs would think if they were useless because you had a ranged AA stacking on TP as ARC. Meanwhile, neither CON nor THM had those ranged AAs. It would entice more drama.

Ok, so then your solution to this would be to give ARC, CON, THM all ranged AAs. So what do LNC, GLA, and PUG get? Nothing? Those throwing weapons perhaps? Oh but, why do you guys get ranged AAs and why would LNC, GLA and PUG have to BUY their ranged attacks?

My point in case, stop thinking about yourselves and think about the bigger picture, then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to jump on FFXIV's devs, and realize that these changes are necessary.

The lesser of 2 evils are being chosen to balance this game and make it the way it should be, what a lot of people are doing now are whining and choosing the would be greater of 2 evils, which is why you are not developing this game.

Instead, why not be positive and ADD to this game and to the community by giving helpful tips and advice to newer people coming into the game instead of dashing their hopes and bursting their bubbles? A lot more people would appreciate it, the FFXIV community would improve and you won't be flamed on these forums for just being a troll

Peace.

Actually Auto attack being added is the evil here in the 1st place but that's another argument.

Making all classes a melee class that just happen to have ranged ability's as their main type isn't good game design, easier yes i'll agree on that.
But DoM are by design squish, if you want them to stand at melee range then you should give them the same defence as other melee by your arguments on XYZ being unfair (which is a silly solution).

Giving a Ranged Class a melee AA is a bit daft or lazy imo.
Mainly based on the fact it will have most likely been worked into the damage and TP generation calculations for the class.
Meaning without standing on top of the mob, a archer is reducing the potential dps level intended for the class.

But you want to talk solutions without a range auto attack?
Drop AA on con/thm/arc.
Re evaluate the DPs calculations based on this and reduce the cool down on the basic (non tp) attack based on the new calculations.
This may include lower TP generation from the attack or lower damage on some ability's as I do feel archer is still a higher damage dealer then most.

Also atm if a archer misses a shot or fails to build the relevant TP they can find them self with no possible actions, I know myself I rarely stand anywhere near a mob or let it get close if I can help it.
However if they are standing on top of the mob they may build additional TP via Auto attack.

So with Auto attack being a melee ability they are forcing archers to act as a melee class for there positioning not a ranged one to get the intended DPS.

[Dacen]

Actually Auto attack being added is the evil here in the 1st place but that's another argument.

Making all classes a melee class that just happen to have ranged ability's as their main type isn't good game design, easier yes i'll agree on that.
But DoM are by design squish, if you want them to stand at melee range then you should give them the same defence as other melee by your arguments on XYZ being unfair (which is a silly solution).

Giving a Ranged Class a melee AA is a bit daft or lazy imo.
Mainly based on the fact it will have most likely been worked into the damage and TP generation calculations for the class.
Meaning without standing on top of the mob, a archer is reducing the potential dps level intended for the class.

But you want to talk solutions without a range auto attack?
Drop AA on con/thm/arc.
Re evaluate the DPs calculations based on this and reduce the cool down on the basic (non tp) attack based on the new calculations.
This may include lower TP generation from the attack or lower damage on some ability's as I do feel archer is still a higher damage dealer then most.

Also atm if a archer misses a shot or fails to build the relevant TP they can find them self with no possible actions, I know myself I rarely stand anywhere near a mob or let it get close if I can help it.
However if they are standing on top of the mob they may build additional TP via Auto attack.

So with Auto attack being a melee ability they are forcing archers to act as a melee class for there positioning not a ranged one to get the intended DPS.

Let's take a step back for a moment and look what happens if we implemented your thoughts and ideas, which others surely share

As I see it, a short bow has a delay of about 3.5s, and a long bow about 4.1s...you want to implement a ranged AA? ok. Then that means "Light Shot" is out of the picture, or perhaps given a delay like other classes, 30s. Btw, "Light Shot" currently has a cool down of about 2-3s and generates a healthy amount of TP, I can say after 2 shots I can already initiate a TP skill.

But what happens now? A ranged AA with a higher delay than "Light Shot" (which you can already activate anyway), and you want it to have a lower TP generation? Aren't you going a little backwards here? What if THAT misses, and more than once? Suddenly, ARC and their Ranged AA have even less control than they have now, and you'll feel even more useless...not to mention that'll open up a whole new can of complaints, wouldn't you agree?

And yet, even if "Light Shot" or other Ranged AAs were still reduced with their cool down timers to compliment the low TP generation, we would be back right where we started (but w/o the stamina bar) and once again, people would be so focused on their non-tp based attacks, that they would suffer with spam keys and therefore be able to focus less (which was just fixed). Now, include a ranged AA in the mix, and it'll be a drastically OP situation (which was just fixed as well)

A lot of people are missing the bigger picture, yes a melee AA is pretty useless for ARC, but any sort of AA for ARC is not needed. Think of it as a different play style from the rest of the classes that they are trying to implement. If I play a certain class, I want to feel like I'm playing that class and not merely a melting pot of other classes which pre 1.18 really felt like, don't you agree?

So no, you are not forced to do anything, especially make ARC act like unarmed melee. You just feel you must act this way since they implemented it.

Solution:

/eaction 1 "Light Shot"
/eaction 2 "Close Shot"

And you'll appreciate you have a 2-3s cooldown with healthy TP generation as opposed to a 3.5s - 4.1s ranged AA delay that could miss just as likely anyway. Now please tell me which would be more frustrating when it misses.

[Esk]

Let's take a step back for a moment and look what happens if we implemented your thoughts and ideas, which others surely share

As I see it, a short bow has a delay of about 3.5s, and a long bow about 4.1s...you want to implement a ranged AA? ok. Then that means "Light Shot" is out of the picture, or perhaps given a delay like other classes, 30s. Btw, "Light Shot" currently has a cool down of about 2-3s and generates a healthy amount of TP, I can say after 2 shots I can already initiate a TP skill.

But what happens now? A ranged AA with a higher delay than "Light Shot" (which you can already activate anyway), and you want it to have a lower TP generation? Aren't you going a little backwards here? What if THAT misses, and more than once? Suddenly, ARC and their Ranged AA have even less control than they have now, and you'll feel even more useless...not to mention that'll open up a whole new can of complaints, wouldn't you agree?

And yet, even if "Light Shot" or other Ranged AAs were still reduced with their cool down timers to compliment the low TP generation, we would be back right where we started (but w/o the stamina bar) and once again, people would be so focused on their non-tp based attacks, that they would suffer with spam keys and therefore be able to focus less (which was just fixed). Now, include a ranged AA in the mix, and it'll be a drastically OP situation (which was just fixed as well)

A lot of people are missing the bigger picture, yes a melee AA is pretty useless for ARC, but any sort of AA for ARC is not needed. Think of it as a different play style from the rest of the classes that they are trying to implement. If I play a certain class, I want to feel like I'm playing that class and not merely a melting pot of other classes which pre 1.18 really felt like, don't you agree?

So no, you are not forced to do anything, especially make ARC act like unarmed melee. You just feel you must act this way since they implemented it.

Solution:

/eaction 1 "Light Shot"
/eaction 2 "Close Shot"

And you'll appreciate you have a 2-3s cooldown with healthy TP generation as opposed to a 3.5s - 4.1s ranged AA delay that could miss just as likely anyway. Now please tell me which would be more frustrating when it misses.

I never actually said to add a Ranged Auto attack with/without lower TP generation or actually to add one at all.
What I did say was to remove it totally from the class as I would agree for all 3 classes its pointless, unless it was ranged.
And to Re-evaluate the cool downs on rangers attacks along with TP generation as a reduction on light/close shot cool down (i'm only talking 0.5-1s probably) would mean its TP generation would be to great Vs its cool down.

Your point in not having AA is partly correct though, and what ever approach that is taken will not make everyone happy.
But I will stand on that a melee AA on a ranged class is pointless, and bad design in some respects.

What I was actually pointing out that when you build a class you would include the use of and auto attack in the calculations of the potential DPS and TP generation of any class.
So unless SE did take that into account in the intended DPS workings.
Then anyone playing at range and not using the Auto attack is gimped by those standards.
And Close/light shot share a cool down, so firing one then the other makes no difference.

So to End,
I have No issue with archer atm with its lack of ranged auto attack.
I have an issue with it having a melee on base on what I have said above.

I do not want a Range Auto Attack adding to the class myself.
I would by choice have it removed and have the devs re calculate the DPS/TPG/cool downs of the class based on not having it at all.

[Sawamura]

Why people being a Archer o.o;? If they want to get close to mob and doing AA or having AA from far away!? I just don't understand here sorry...... I still attack really fast with Lightshot + heavy shot + Multishot and doing awsome damage....