Archer - Auto Attack

[Esk]

About time there's less whining and more thinking with your heads. You're all so selfish, put yourself in the developer point of view.

If you were a dev, and were implementing an auto attack for archer, would you even consider for a second the possibility that having a ranged auto attack with infinite arrows, lower dmg, etc. would take away from the class rather than give to it? You'd just engage, pop a bunch of infinite AA shots before you stack your buffs and blast a high damage TP skill...wouldn't that be boring? Oh and let's not even think about initiating TP skills in between all that ranged AA madness, don't you think that would skew the damage in your favour a little TOO much? Then other DDs would have to be re-balanced again.

Think of what other DDs would think if they were useless because you had a ranged AA stacking on TP as ARC. Meanwhile, neither CON nor THM had those ranged AAs. It would entice more drama.

Ok, so then your solution to this would be to give ARC, CON, THM all ranged AAs. So what do LNC, GLA, and PUG get? Nothing? Those throwing weapons perhaps? Oh but, why do you guys get ranged AAs and why would LNC, GLA and PUG have to BUY their ranged attacks?

My point in case, stop thinking about yourselves and think about the bigger picture, then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to jump on FFXIV's devs, and realize that these changes are necessary.

The lesser of 2 evils are being chosen to balance this game and make it the way it should be, what a lot of people are doing now are whining and choosing the would be greater of 2 evils, which is why you are not developing this game.

Instead, why not be positive and ADD to this game and to the community by giving helpful tips and advice to newer people coming into the game instead of dashing their hopes and bursting their bubbles? A lot more people would appreciate it, the FFXIV community would improve and you won't be flamed on these forums for just being a troll

Peace.

Actually Auto attack being added is the evil here in the 1st place but that's another argument.

Making all classes a melee class that just happen to have ranged ability's as their main type isn't good game design, easier yes i'll agree on that.
But DoM are by design squish, if you want them to stand at melee range then you should give them the same defence as other melee by your arguments on XYZ being unfair (which is a silly solution).

Giving a Ranged Class a melee AA is a bit daft or lazy imo.
Mainly based on the fact it will have most likely been worked into the damage and TP generation calculations for the class.
Meaning without standing on top of the mob, a archer is reducing the potential dps level intended for the class.

But you want to talk solutions without a range auto attack?
Drop AA on con/thm/arc.
Re evaluate the DPs calculations based on this and reduce the cool down on the basic (non tp) attack based on the new calculations.
This may include lower TP generation from the attack or lower damage on some ability's as I do feel archer is still a higher damage dealer then most.

Also atm if a archer misses a shot or fails to build the relevant TP they can find them self with no possible actions, I know myself I rarely stand anywhere near a mob or let it get close if I can help it.
However if they are standing on top of the mob they may build additional TP via Auto attack.

So with Auto attack being a melee ability they are forcing archers to act as a melee class for there positioning not a ranged one to get the intended DPS.

[Dacen]

Actually Auto attack being added is the evil here in the 1st place but that's another argument.

Making all classes a melee class that just happen to have ranged ability's as their main type isn't good game design, easier yes i'll agree on that.
But DoM are by design squish, if you want them to stand at melee range then you should give them the same defence as other melee by your arguments on XYZ being unfair (which is a silly solution).

Giving a Ranged Class a melee AA is a bit daft or lazy imo.
Mainly based on the fact it will have most likely been worked into the damage and TP generation calculations for the class.
Meaning without standing on top of the mob, a archer is reducing the potential dps level intended for the class.

But you want to talk solutions without a range auto attack?
Drop AA on con/thm/arc.
Re evaluate the DPs calculations based on this and reduce the cool down on the basic (non tp) attack based on the new calculations.
This may include lower TP generation from the attack or lower damage on some ability's as I do feel archer is still a higher damage dealer then most.

Also atm if a archer misses a shot or fails to build the relevant TP they can find them self with no possible actions, I know myself I rarely stand anywhere near a mob or let it get close if I can help it.
However if they are standing on top of the mob they may build additional TP via Auto attack.

So with Auto attack being a melee ability they are forcing archers to act as a melee class for there positioning not a ranged one to get the intended DPS.

Let's take a step back for a moment and look what happens if we implemented your thoughts and ideas, which others surely share

As I see it, a short bow has a delay of about 3.5s, and a long bow about 4.1s...you want to implement a ranged AA? ok. Then that means "Light Shot" is out of the picture, or perhaps given a delay like other classes, 30s. Btw, "Light Shot" currently has a cool down of about 2-3s and generates a healthy amount of TP, I can say after 2 shots I can already initiate a TP skill.

But what happens now? A ranged AA with a higher delay than "Light Shot" (which you can already activate anyway), and you want it to have a lower TP generation? Aren't you going a little backwards here? What if THAT misses, and more than once? Suddenly, ARC and their Ranged AA have even less control than they have now, and you'll feel even more useless...not to mention that'll open up a whole new can of complaints, wouldn't you agree?

And yet, even if "Light Shot" or other Ranged AAs were still reduced with their cool down timers to compliment the low TP generation, we would be back right where we started (but w/o the stamina bar) and once again, people would be so focused on their non-tp based attacks, that they would suffer with spam keys and therefore be able to focus less (which was just fixed). Now, include a ranged AA in the mix, and it'll be a drastically OP situation (which was just fixed as well)

A lot of people are missing the bigger picture, yes a melee AA is pretty useless for ARC, but any sort of AA for ARC is not needed. Think of it as a different play style from the rest of the classes that they are trying to implement. If I play a certain class, I want to feel like I'm playing that class and not merely a melting pot of other classes which pre 1.18 really felt like, don't you agree?

So no, you are not forced to do anything, especially make ARC act like unarmed melee. You just feel you must act this way since they implemented it.

Solution:

/eaction 1 "Light Shot"
/eaction 2 "Close Shot"

And you'll appreciate you have a 2-3s cooldown with healthy TP generation as opposed to a 3.5s - 4.1s ranged AA delay that could miss just as likely anyway. Now please tell me which would be more frustrating when it misses.

[Esk]

Let's take a step back for a moment and look what happens if we implemented your thoughts and ideas, which others surely share

As I see it, a short bow has a delay of about 3.5s, and a long bow about 4.1s...you want to implement a ranged AA? ok. Then that means "Light Shot" is out of the picture, or perhaps given a delay like other classes, 30s. Btw, "Light Shot" currently has a cool down of about 2-3s and generates a healthy amount of TP, I can say after 2 shots I can already initiate a TP skill.

But what happens now? A ranged AA with a higher delay than "Light Shot" (which you can already activate anyway), and you want it to have a lower TP generation? Aren't you going a little backwards here? What if THAT misses, and more than once? Suddenly, ARC and their Ranged AA have even less control than they have now, and you'll feel even more useless...not to mention that'll open up a whole new can of complaints, wouldn't you agree?

And yet, even if "Light Shot" or other Ranged AAs were still reduced with their cool down timers to compliment the low TP generation, we would be back right where we started (but w/o the stamina bar) and once again, people would be so focused on their non-tp based attacks, that they would suffer with spam keys and therefore be able to focus less (which was just fixed). Now, include a ranged AA in the mix, and it'll be a drastically OP situation (which was just fixed as well)

A lot of people are missing the bigger picture, yes a melee AA is pretty useless for ARC, but any sort of AA for ARC is not needed. Think of it as a different play style from the rest of the classes that they are trying to implement. If I play a certain class, I want to feel like I'm playing that class and not merely a melting pot of other classes which pre 1.18 really felt like, don't you agree?

So no, you are not forced to do anything, especially make ARC act like unarmed melee. You just feel you must act this way since they implemented it.

Solution:

/eaction 1 "Light Shot"
/eaction 2 "Close Shot"

And you'll appreciate you have a 2-3s cooldown with healthy TP generation as opposed to a 3.5s - 4.1s ranged AA delay that could miss just as likely anyway. Now please tell me which would be more frustrating when it misses.

I never actually said to add a Ranged Auto attack with/without lower TP generation or actually to add one at all.
What I did say was to remove it totally from the class as I would agree for all 3 classes its pointless, unless it was ranged.
And to Re-evaluate the cool downs on rangers attacks along with TP generation as a reduction on light/close shot cool down (i'm only talking 0.5-1s probably) would mean its TP generation would be to great Vs its cool down.

Your point in not having AA is partly correct though, and what ever approach that is taken will not make everyone happy.
But I will stand on that a melee AA on a ranged class is pointless, and bad design in some respects.

What I was actually pointing out that when you build a class you would include the use of and auto attack in the calculations of the potential DPS and TP generation of any class.
So unless SE did take that into account in the intended DPS workings.
Then anyone playing at range and not using the Auto attack is gimped by those standards.
And Close/light shot share a cool down, so firing one then the other makes no difference.

So to End,
I have No issue with archer atm with its lack of ranged auto attack.
I have an issue with it having a melee on base on what I have said above.

I do not want a Range Auto Attack adding to the class myself.
I would by choice have it removed and have the devs re calculate the DPS/TPG/cool downs of the class based on not having it at all.

[Sawamura]

Why people being a Archer o.o;? If they want to get close to mob and doing AA or having AA from far away!? I just don't understand here sorry...... I still attack really fast with Lightshot + heavy shot + Multishot and doing awsome damage....

[Dacen]

I apologize, I mis-interpreted it when you said:

Drop AA on con/thm/arc.

As "drop it on them" kind of thing which led me to believe you wanted the ranged AA with low TP generation + lowered CDs.

And to that end, AA is here whether we like it or not, and not everyone will like it of course. But having said that, it's the way FFXI was (where Rangers had a dual wield trait to AA with close range if necessary), and it's the way FFXIV is going to be. I'm sure we'll see changes in the near future that make AA more reliable as opposed to the way it is now.

But I think for now, they just wanted to implement it in some form, and that's the solution ARC got.

I originally posted in this thread because everyone wants everything now, and are giving up all hope for this game based off of one patch that's been out for a few days haha.

But I digress, your ideas are already in motion I believe, seeing as how they don't have an AA (minus melee range) but again, ARC was just slapped with a melee AA because nothing has been done to compliment it's AA yet, it's only integrated into the FFXIV system.

So saying ARC has an AA or not is irrelevant because cool downs and TPG have already been re-calculated, and DPS has already been modified based off of this system.

[Esk]

Ah I see, I could have worded that better I'll admit.

My only intent in posting was to point out a possible flaw if the AA has been used by SE in its calculations and position archers place in the DPS line accordingly and only they will know if it has.

Maybe the shorter timer/damage/TPG on Light/Close shot is actually already set this way to compensate for not being in rage of the mob for the use of AA.
But that again would be an issue for players using the Auto attack Vs those not in the overall damage and so on, but ive not sat and done numbers and doubt i will (far to old to care these days),
But again range modifiers on skill damage could easily be used (or have been) to compensate for that and balance it, or they could be planing on a limited melee skill set agreed we don't know atm.

The rest is just my position on AA, and being in the minority thinking its a lazy tool for easier boting changes nothing, as I know it is here as the more vocal majority want it.

[Scape]

got myself in trouble last night with the punching. In dungeon, mages slept a group of mobs. I had one targeted that was right next to me, and because I 'activated' my action bar by trying to cure myself it also activated my auto attack and I punched and woke up the mob.

I gotta get use to this

[Baelari]

Ranged auto-attack would be a nightmare. Picture this scenario: you have a group of mobs slept, and you need to tab through them to engage the red one. If auto-attack were ranged, you would be uncontrollably shooting arrows into a sleeping crowd of yellow mobs. Also this: when pulling a mob back to the group, do you sit in arrow range with your target selected while waiting on mages to get mp/heal someone/come back from being afk? Ranged auto-attack would prevent you from doing this. I definitely prefer not uncontrollably attacking everything I accidentally target.

[Capita]

Ranged auto-attack would be a nightmare. Picture this scenario: you have a group of mobs slept, and you need to tab through them to engage the red one. If auto-attack were ranged, you would be uncontrollably shooting arrows into a sleeping crowd of yellow mobs. Also this: when pulling a mob back to the group, do you sit in arrow range with your target selected while waiting on mages to get mp/heal someone/come back from being afk? Ranged auto-attack would prevent you from doing this. I definitely prefer not uncontrollably attacking everything I accidentally target.

You never played a game that allowed AA to be toggled on and off?

It's honestly not rocket science to figure out a working AA system.

[Viridiana]

You never played a game that allowed AA to be toggled on and off?

It's honestly not rocket science to figure out a working AA system.

Yeah, I really wish AA were a toggle in this game. Maybe I'm just too used to WoW, but watching the CON smack a drake in the head right after they sleep it is. . . absurd.