Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

[Duelle]

Secondly, yes there is a great risk in making classes too unique but if they can pull off an MMO that has stood the test of time for 10+ years and STILL uses PS2 graphics, then I think they are more than capable of finding a balance and doing the same here.

"Balance" and FFXI are mutually exclusive. If you look at the trends that formed in that game over the years, it's pretty damn clear.

That aside, the reason people stick around is because of tribalism (AKA the nonsense that turns everything in an "us vs them" scenario), and the attachment formed when you spend a shitton of time on something. Old school MMOs relied a LOT on that, and people expectedly cling to it to justify the many hours spent on some of the stuff from those games.

they do need to give each class something that will make the player look at them and be able to choose a reason WHY they want to play that class, not just trying to decide on HOW they wanna dish out the dmg.

This already exists. If you like the aesthetic of Kain Highwind and jumps, you're going to play a dragoon. If you like hitting things with your fists and martial arts, you're gonna play MNK. If you like black mages and nukes, chances are you'll play BLM. If you like pet classes and utility, you'll play SMN. If you like big axes, active mitigation and rage, chances are you'll gravitate towards WAR. If you like swords you'll be lured by PLD.

Granted, you won't find what you like until you actually try those jobs, but that's sort of the point of playing the game. Just be glad we don't have to reroll every time we want to try a new class.

[XNihili]

White Mage, everyone knew this was the ultimate healer, no class could compare to the healing skills this class had.
Black Mage, the only class in the game capable of using the devastating Ancient Magic.
Blue Mage, the only class in the game that could learn monster skills and use them against others.
Ninja, No class in the game has more evasion than this class and they have the ultimate spell, Utsumi: Ichi and Utsumi: Ni. AKA: Shadows! A Ninjitsu spell that allows to you evade ANY SPELL OR ATTACK.

That's just lore. Otherwise it's just all the same.
Ancient magics are just like normal spell except longer casting time and piss poor damage compared to MP cost.
Blue mage spells are just spells, except the way you get them from monsters and how you allocate them. You have the damage spells, the healing spells, some utility ones and that's it.
Ninja is not the best evasion class because Thief is the one with more evasion bonus traits. And everybody had the utsusemi.
If you are talking about melee DPS in FFXI, everybody is just in autoattack while waiting for TP to do TP attack

[Scootaloo]

"Balance" and FFXI are mutually exclusive.

Post abby, I WHOLE HEARTEDLY agree with you. Pre-abby I call BS, no offense.

That aside, the reason people stick around is because of tribalism (AKA the nonsense that turns everything in an "us vs them" scenario), and the attachment formed when you spend a shitton of time on something. Old school MMOs relied a LOT on that, and people expectedly cling to it to justify the many hours spent on some of the stuff from those games

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there along with about 70% of FFXI's playerbase. If you ask just about any FFXI player, they'll tell you the reason they played the game was because they enjoyed the challenge it provided,the storylines, the jobs, and the exploration value. You won't hear much of that now at days because 90% of the FFXI playerbase left once abby raped everything the game stood for and left it on the ground sobbing before taking its proverbial D**K and and doing it again with the next two abby expansions to come out.

This already exists. If you like the aesthetic of Kain Highwind and jumps, you're going to play a dragoon. If you like hitting things with your fists and martial arts, you're gonna play MNK. If you like black mages and nukes, chances are you'll play BLM. If you like pet classes and utility, you'll play SMN. If you like big axes, active mitigation and rage, chances are you'll gravitate towards WAR. If you like swords you'll be lured by PLD.

Once again, you like many other posters in this thread are pointing out everything I already know but NONE OF THAT makes me wanna play another class over another. Please look at earlier posts and you'll understand what I'm saying.

That's just lore. Otherwise it's just all the same.

Well that "Lore" as you called it is what made FFXI so successful.

[Sapphic]

Yes I already know they have these qualities and I suppose mentioning them in the OP would have been a good idea but I saw little point in it at the time.

However, you've simply proven my point further. The facts you've pointed out are merely core mechanics to their class and I'd be shocked and appalled if these weren't included to begin with. Beyond these core mechanics though, what does each class have to offer?

What skill or passive ability makes the Black Mage shine when accompanied by the Summoner?

Their ability to quickly burst adds or to push phases due to burst

What skill makes the Monk stand out from the Bard or the Dragoon in the party?

Their high constant damage, Mantra which assists the healers recovering from high damage on the party, DRGs high physical resistance to grab adds and burst them down, BRDs ability to replenish TP, MP and buff caster damage

What skill does the white Mage have that makes it stand out next to the Scholar in an 8man party?

All of the AE heals, medica, medica II, cure 3. SCHs shields which reduce spike damage on tanks by a huge amount, or reduces incoming damage on the party. Try doing turn 9 with 2x WHM or 2x SCH.

Having trouble coming up with an answer?

That's my point.

That was just a quick response, so no, not having any trouble.

So what's your point?

No, you can't accurately compare and say you have "mastered" classes at level 30, due their uniqueness coming, not from the class abilities, but from their Job abilities.

[Vaara]

Post abby, I WHOLE HEARTEDLY agree with you. Pre-abby I call BS, no offense.

So "lolpup and loldrg" was never a thing? It was completely unbalanced. There were six or so jobs that everyone wanted for stuff, and other jobs made up the numbers if they weren't available. Maybe one or two of the other jobs had their moment of glory in a couple of fights in the game, but that was about it.

FFXI had a bunch of DPS that basically did the same thing: (DRK, DRG, MNK, SAM, RNG etc) auto attack with the odd ability thrown in, then use your TP. Take Bard and Dragoon in FFXIV, and they are far more diverse than any of these.

I like how you pretend to be all victimised for playing FFXI though, when a few posts before you did the exact same thing to me for WoW (despite the fact that I never played WoW, was a long time FFXI player).

[Aegis]

And you don't see anything wrong with having the same pieces of gears for years on end ?

Honestly? Not even a little bit. That piece of gear would take years to obtain. 6 mo to level your first job was pretty typical. Most people wouldn't have full Homam (for example) until years after when they started. Or Byakko's Haidate until they have been farming sky for months. The piece of gear was something you were proud of, something you built your gearset around. When next coil comes around, HA will have been BIS for what? 6 months? And you will be able to get gear better than it from whatever new tomes they release. One of these systems sounds rewarding to me, the other is like a cat chasing a mouse on a string.

If you find that boring, then the whole get 100% TP, pop cooldowns and use Weapon Skills style of FFXI must have been a snore fest to you.

Is that all you remember from XI. You don't remember organising skill chains and magic bursts? Setting up SATAs, BRD maintaining 4 or 5 song rotations? Samurais and Blue Magics Self-SC'ing? The list can go on and on. It sounds like you're pretty jaded about XI.

That's just lore. Otherwise it's just all the same.
Ancient magics are just like normal spell except longer casting time and piss poor damage compared to MP cost.
Blue mage spells are just spells, except the way you get them from monsters and how you allocate them. You have the damage spells, the healing spells, some utility ones and that's it.
Ninja is not the best evasion class because Thief is the one with more evasion bonus traits. And everybody had the utsusemi.
If you are talking about melee DPS in FFXI, everybody is just in autoattack while waiting for TP to do TP attack

Yeah, Ancient Magics weren't particularly well used, but a team of BLMs were used to sleep/nuke down mobs that were melee resistant or otherwise dangerous. BLM were also the DD of choice for SKillchains/Magic Burst

Blue Magic was very, very different to other magics. They followed not only the elemental wheel, but also the monster afinity chart (this was why MP Drainkiss for example was extremely effective on Colibri), they weren't affected by magic reflection abilities, they could be used as either part of a self-skillchain or a magic burst on that same skillchain. More than just that, they were spells with the shortest cast times, aimed to be used in melee combat. Saying they were the same as other spells means you are either forgetting how they actually were or are deliberately misrepresenting them.

And as for the melee DD, they all played very differently. Thieves were pulling mobs, orgainising the rest of the party into SATA positions. Dancers were using steps, sambas and flourishes along with their weaponskills, DRG were subbing mages and using healing breaths to solo mobs other jobs just couldn't. RDM were solo'ing gods.

So much more variety in roles.

[Duelle]

Post abby, I WHOLE HEARTEDLY agree with you. Pre-abby I call BS

All Abyssea did is bring to light a lot of the balance and design issues that plagued the game since Zilart and the job revamp. The mistake was not so much abyssea content itself, but the simple fact that nothing was done to address the issues. What has been attempted since has been too little, too late.

Once again, you like many other posters in this thread are pointing out everything I already know but NONE OF THAT makes me wanna play another class over another.

That's not a problem with game design, and more an issue with what you're looking for in particular.

Honestly? Not even a little bit. That piece of gear would take years to obtain. 6 mo to level your first job was pretty typical. Most people wouldn't have full Homam (for example) until years after when they started. Or Byakko's Haidate until they have been farming sky for months.

Design at the time favored stuff taking forever to get anything done. That said, XI got away with a lv75 cap for as long as it did because almost everything introduced at higher levels was basically swap pieces or inventory+1 pieces. That's not good design in the long run between wasted art assets and inventory issues. Both of which XI suffered from.

Not to mention strenuous grinds for stuff in general don't reward anyone, and instead make them think along the lines of "thank god I don't have to do that ever again". Atma farming is pretty much giving people that mindset as well because it follows exactly the same principle.

You don't remember organising skill chains and magic bursts?

You mean back when the only two skillchains everyone cared about was Distortion and lv3 Light? And lol at you if you couldn't take part in either.

And were phased out of general gameplay by the players themselves at the first chance that they got.

Setting up SATAs

Oh, that thing that got abandoned the moment SA Viper Bite stopped doing ridiculous damage on IT++ targets. Oh and then was expected of DRKs since they could do THF's job better than they could at 60+.

BRD maintaining 4 or 5 song rotations?

Spamming the same four/five songs out of how many that BRD had access to?

Samurais and Blue Magics Self-SC'ing?

Surprise surprise, 2 out of 20 jobs could self-SC. 3 if you count DRG but that was only possible with /SAM and Spirit Surge.

Your examples aren't exactly stellar displays of good combat design.

[Aegis]

Design at the time favored stuff taking forever to get anything done. That said, XI got away with a lv75 cap for as long as it did because almost everything introduced at higher levels was basically swap pieces or inventory+1 pieces. That's not good design in the long run between wasted art assets and inventory issues. Both of which XI suffered from.

Not to mention strenuous grinds for stuff in general don't reward anyone, and instead make them think along the lines of "thank god I don't have to do that ever again". Atma farming is pretty much giving people that mindset as well because it follows exactly the same principle.

IF it was such terrible design, how was it SE's most successful game ever? It didn't lose subs for many many years into its lifespan, it has outlasted many games that subscribe to the WoW model (I'm not calling them WoW clones just to head off any arguments). With a glamour system there wouldn't be any more wasted art assets than in thsi game, certainly.

You mean back when the only two skillchains everyone cared about was Distortion and lv3 Light? And lol at you if you couldn't take part in either.

Actually, I found self-skillchaining gravitation (I think it was, it's been a while) into an MP drainkiss doubled my MP intake and allowed me to go between fights without resting on my BLU/THF.

Also, on my first job to 75, one of my most fun memories was closing Darkness Skillchains on Magmatic Erucas with Cross Reaper from the MNK's WS (Howling fist, I think...) for our BLM to Ancient Magic (yes we actually MB'd AM, lol we were noobs) MB.

And were phased out of general gameplay by the players themselves at the first chance that they got.

When the game design changed to favour other styles of play (Merit-pt pulling Colibri and Puks), then favoured compositions and play styles did indeed change. Anyone who said LolDRG on Puks or Colibri was an idiot.

Oh, that thing that got abandoned the moment SA Viper Bite stopped doing ridiculous damage on IT++ targets. Oh and then was expected of DRKs since they could do THF's job better than they could at 60+.

Yes, at that point Thief was given the level 60 ability (forgotten its name) that hugely increased TA damage and made it viable to use seperately to SA. They also got two additional hate transfer abilities also.

Spamming the same four/five songs out of how many that BRD had access to?

March I/II
Madrigal I/II
Minuet I/II
Ballad I/II
Foe Lullaby
Horde Lullaby
Elegy I/II

If you weren't singing these songs regularly you were doing it wrong. The only songs I think I never sang were the Mambos that increased evasion. Even a couple of the Carols were useful in Temenos. On Carby it was nearly mandatory.

Surprise surprise, 2 out of 20 jobs could self-SC. 3 if you count DRG but that was only possible with /SAM and Spirit Surge.

If they all could, it wouldn't be unique, would it? Which is kind of what this thread is all about.

Your examples aren't exactly stellar displays of good combat design.

I think they're better than you're giving them credit for.

But then, I think my experience of XI may have been different than yours. I joined just after ToAU (xbox release) and left shortly after Abyssea.

[WellGramarye]

Lol@ BLU/ToAU in general.

King Ranperre's Tomb Monk burns were where it was at before all that new fangled bird camp business and ToAU easy mode xp/merits.

:>

[Fyce]

Now take a look at FFXIV classes. What do they have that makes them stand out from one another?

See my point yet?

You can't find a difference between them.
As stated multiple times in the thread, what you think is a fact is just your own opinion.

People may agree with you, and people may not. And as you are now well aware after 16 pages, a lot of people disagree with you.
You expressed your opinion, people answered and you now know that you are the minority.

You say "I think classes are too similar", people say "no, they're not".
That's it, end of the story.