Griefing with an emote

[BatHead]

I'm kinda of the mindset to let these people go ahead and do it if they want. All they are doing is showing everyone what jerks they are. If they want to embarrass themselves, maybe they should be allowed to so we know to stay away from them.

[Cidel]

I'm kinda of the mindset to let these people go ahead and do it if they want. All they are doing is showing everyone what jerks they are. If they want to embarrass themselves, maybe they should be allowed to so we know to stay away from them.

The psuedo- anonymity of just having your job labelled and not your name is going to make people think they can get away with being immature and there can be no consequences; and for the most part, that's true. I know that I for one, am not going to know who the Lala PLD in ST gear was who stood by my corpse and /laughed repeatedly is and it would be ridiculous to try and go looking for them afterwards. I don't care enough to look at names after a match is over anyway. And I think we all know why there probably can't be names displayed during a match.

Brush it off, and just be on the look-out for sweet-revenge.

[Shake0615]

Agree or disagree, teabagging (or emote taunting of any sort) has been a standard of gaming behavior since games went online. For SE to take a stance against this would just be ludicrous. And how exactly are they going to police this? Are we going to see "Excessive Celebration" as a reason to kick someone?

Someone said it before: just grow thicker skin and deal with it. Good grief, I can't even believe we are having this conversation.

[YuriRamona]

Agree or disagree, teabagging (or emote taunting of any sort) has been a standard of gaming behavior since games went online. For SE to take a stance against this would just be ludicrous. And how exactly are they going to police this? Are we going to see "Excessive Celebration" as a reason to kick someone?

Someone said it before: just grow thicker skin and deal with it. Jesus Christ, I can't even believe we are having this conversation.

Let's run through the flaws of your argument.

1. It's ludicrous to take a stand against a standard that has existed since games went online.
Simply because something has existed for a long time or has remained unchanged doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't be changed or that it would be a bad idea to attempt to do so. I would cite some obvious real-world parallels but I assume you can come up with a few examples.

2. "Excessive Celebration" is an example of a policy that is difficult/impossible to police.
Simply because something is difficult to police doesn't mean that it shouldn't be policed at all.

For example, we can agree that there are extremes that should and should not be policed, respectively. For example, a player making a fist pump or clapping shouldn't be punished. Alternatively, a player who is delaying a game by celebrating or inciting others to celebrate should be (because we don't know if they're delaying a game to give their team more time to rest [illegal timeouts], time to huddle, time to strategize, etc)

In the real world with sports, this is actually less of an issue because there are "plays" and times in between when the ball is not in play.

In FFXIV's PvP, there is no such exception, because you are always in play and you are expected to always be participating. This means that even delaying a second or two impacts the enjoyment of the game by your team and the opposing teams.

Other examples of "difficult to police" policies: harassment and griefing. We can all agree that stalking someone (sending tells or physically stalking) or slandering someone (for example, making up a story about how you stole gil and shouting in public) are grounds for punishment. There are reasons to punish people even if the policy is vague and has a ton of gray area.

TL;DR: Just because this is a complicated topic and we can validly debate exceptions/inclusions doesn't mean that the topic should be tossed out altogether.

"Someone said it before: just think a little deeper and deal with it. Yahweh, I can't believe you even think these are valid points."

[Shake0615]

snip

Do you really think we need to put any of the dev's precious time into policing/eliminating this? Really? This is not harassment or griefing. People are literally crying to momma and daddy devs that someone hurt their feelings by doing a victory dance after they got beaten. I'm a teacher by trade and I know tattletaling when I see it. But for the sake of argument I'll take on your points.

1. Innocuous activities that MMO players participate in is not worth wasting the devs'/GM's time on regardless of how long they've been around. This includes teabagging, spamming skills in cities, crafting in walkways, and following people around and /poking them. Can these things be annoying? Yeah, but it's not worth bothering a dev/GM to correct it.

2. You're right, but it comes into a cost-benefit analysis. With all the real problems facing this game teabagging is not something worthy of any effort on the devs part to correct it. Plain and simple.

[YuriRamona]

This is not a major league sport and is also not a life and death situation, many people forget this is a game and people are entitled to PvP the way they want to within means (obviously 3rd party programs are not within means). Even if you are being silly and compare the game to major league sports or even the working world, you can scarcely say that anything in life is without 'poor sportsmanship'/'immature'/'harassment'.
This is human nature, there are people who will do this and no amount of descriptive words will change it.

You are NOT entitled to PvP the way you want to "within means". Sidestepping the obvious lapse in judgment of using an extremely vague term, it's clear that there are definite standards of play for all aspects of FFXIV, even if you're queuing solo and get matched with strangers.

For example, you can't:

• Intentionally fail to perform your job
• Pull all the mobs in a dungeon to the party and AoE them to death
• Disrupt a party's progress
• Stand around and set off fireworks for 90 minutes
• Type out the full works of Shakespeare's masterpieces

These are all grounds for a vote kick. A pattern of this kind of disruptive behavior violates the Terms of Service because it would be considering harassment/griefing.

There are definite expectations of players in PvP:

• Do damage to the other team.
• Heal your team.
• Defend your team with Cover, Holmgang, Sleep, other crowd control abilities.
• Camp or defend a point.
• Push a point or bait others to chase you.
• Scout around and provide information.

And any other function that directly or indirectly improves your team's score.

Performing an emote over a fallen enemy not only doesn't serve a valid purpose, but also prevents you from carrying out the above expected duties. You would have to make the argument that performing the emote somehow disrupts the enemy and demoralizes them, or something to that effect.
TL;DR: You don't have the right to do whatever you want in a party context or PvP. Just because there is freedom and flexibility in what you do, there is always an overarching goal that you must serve in order to not grief other players.

[Shake0615]

Defend your team with Cover, Holmgang, Sleep, other crowd control abilities.

So I should be able to report any Paladin that doesn't Cover me? Cause there wouldn't be any Paladins left on my data center.

[YuriRamona]

Do you really think we need to put any of the dev's precious time into policing/eliminating this? Really? This is not harassment or griefing. People are literally crying to momma and daddy devs that someone hurt their feelings by doing a victory dance after they got beaten. I'm a teacher by trade and I know tattletaling when I see it. But for the sake of argument I'll take on your points.

1. Innocuous activities that MMO players participate in is not worth wasting the devs'/GM's time on regardless of how long they've been around. This includes teabagging, spamming skills in cities, crafting in walkways, and following people around and /poking them. Can these things be annoying? Yeah, but it's not worth bothering a dev/GM to correct it.
2. You're right, but it comes into a cost-benefit analysis. With all the real problems facing this game teabagging is not something worthy of any effort on the devs part to correct it. Plain and simple.

OK, so your argument is patently irrelevant to begin with. Any argument that makes its case along the axes of cost-benefit, value-worth are necessarily unanswerable and not resolvable. What you find to be valuable doesn't reflect the values of the playerbase as a whole. Your points will always be subjective and therefore up for debate. The same goes for the people who raised the concerns in the first place. That's why we're here, isn't it?

[YuriRamona]

So I should be able to report any Paladin that doesn't Cover me? Cause there wouldn't be any Paladins left on my data center.

It's a list of things. It also includes a point that says "And any other function that directly or indirectly improves your team's score."

It means you can do any or all of these things. The only exception is if your doing of those things somehow causes your team to lose points (for example, intentionally breaking other people's sleeps, binds, Fluid Aura away someone out of melee range, etc).

You can read the rest of my post to see how "griefing emotes" factor in to that list.

[Shake0615]

OK, so your argument is patently irrelevant to begin with. Any argument that makes its case along the axes of cost-benefit, value-worth are necessarily unanswerable and not resolvable. What you find to be valuable doesn't reflect the values of the playerbase as a whole. Your points will always be subjective and therefore up for debate. The same goes for the people who raised the concerns in the first place. That's why we're here, isn't it?

I'm just not going to argue with you then. You're right that both of our views are subjective and that value-worth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. You can give me all the logic in the world to support this position. But that still doesn't change the fact that anyone who complains on official forums that someone else's "nana-nana-boo-boos" are upsetting them is literally acting like a first grader.