Is this the road they will continue to take with items?

[TheMoonflow]

This, OP, is why, despite all the grind and RNG drops etc, I really love the relic quest, I wish there was more like, perhaps relic armor or jewelry that upgrades over patches, would be nice

[Clavaat]

-snip-

I generally agree.

I hated that in FFXI there was gear that I could buy at lvl50ish that would be viable through most endgame content. It made soooo much other gear pointless.

Here's the thing, I truly don't see an actual difference between BiS and the system we had in FFXI. In FFXIV, you can't just go with a full set of soldiery or High Allagan and be OK. Your accuracy will not be balanced out, you secondary stats will be garbage, etc. The game forces you to mix and match pieces for an optimal build in almost all scenarios. In FFXI, we had "viable" sets. That is, you prioritized Haste, Accuracy, main stat. This isn't any different than what we have here, except that FFXI took longer and you could get that amazing gear at much lower levels.

[Tupsi]

In FFXI, we had "viable" sets. That is, you prioritized Haste, Accuracy, main stat. This isn't any different than what we have here, except that FFXI took longer and you could get that amazing gear at much lower levels.

You also forgot the battle system differences:

In XIV there's no true depth to the battle system because everything either has a debuff on it or it's the same 1-2 rotation. In XI, you had to optimize your weaponskill damage or debuff potency/success rate or to raise/lower enmity and etc, which made it more "complex" in comparison. So you prioritized Haste/Accuracy to build TP, you don't prioritize it for your curing because accuracy does nothing for your cures. With Weaponskills, you had to take into consideration if your weapon is a multi-hit or a single hit - with multi hit you need accuracy but you also want the power behind it.

Then came if your weaponskill is elemental or physical..and so on so forth. So yes you can say "it's the same", but it really wasn't if you truly tried to optimized your play. For example as a Corsair if you didn't try to boost your Phantom Roll, especially without the job present..well..most amazing gear didn't come from low levels, most were actually 50s-75+, it just seemed like it because a lot of good items pre 55 cap were introduced at level 7-30 as it was done to aid in leveling, it just happened that it ended up as some good gear to use even later on because it had either an 'enhance' ability on it or a fairly high stat rating without sacrificing another stat.

[Vaara]

Here's the thing, I truly don't see an actual difference between BiS and the system we had in FFXI. In FFXIV, you can't just go with a full set of soldiery or High Allagan and be OK. Your accuracy will not be balanced out, you secondary stats will be garbage, etc. The game forces you to mix and match pieces for an optimal build in almost all scenarios.

There's only one situation where secondary stats matter significantly and that's accuracy in coil. The game doesn't force you to have optimal secondary stats in any other situation, as fights are either incredibly easy or they're about knowing mechanics and having your primary stats high enough.

[Clavaat]

-snip-

I stopped playing around WotG, and at that point, we could easily break down what gear was good, what wasn't, etc based on what we were given. I didn't play COR, but in MNK's case, essentially the same gear was BiS or damn near close for a loooong time.

The battle system is irrelevant, take that out of the context. The concept of Gear piece A is good, Gear piece B is bad because X exists in both FFXI and FFXIV, regardless of ilvl. I think it's fairly common knowledge by now that ilvl =/= better necessarily (see relic weapon) because of things like accuracy caps, diminishing returns, etc. In FFXI, we just called 3 pieces good and 90 bad because they didn't have X stat. It's the same thing, different game.

I know what you're trying to say, but the parallels are there. It didn't make FFXI more "complex", we did the same thing we do here. We know what's good, look it up on a forum, and boom, there's your best set.

There's only one situation where secondary stats matter significantly and that's accuracy in coil. The game doesn't force you to have optimal secondary stats in any other situation, as fights are either incredibly easy or they're about knowing mechanics and having your primary stats high enough.

Somewhat agree. Balancing Accuracy, on WAR at least, forces you to juggle gear a bit in and of itself. Secondary stats are not forced, I agree, but you can do things like push phases and use burn strats if you optimize secondary stats as well.

[Ghishlain]

I stopped playing around WotG, and at that point, we could easily break down what gear was good, what wasn't, etc based on what we were given. I didn't play COR, but in MNK's case, essentially the same gear was BiS or damn near close for a loooong time.

The battle system is irrelevant, take that out of the context. The concept of Gear piece A is good, Gear piece B is bad because X exists in both FFXI and FFXIV, regardless of ilvl. I think it's fairly common knowledge by now that ilvl =/= better necessarily (see relic weapon) because of things like accuracy caps, diminishing returns, etc. In FFXI, we just called 3 pieces good and 90 bad because they didn't have X stat. It's the same thing, different game.

I know what you're trying to say, but the parallels are there. It didn't make FFXI more "complex", we did the same thing we do here. We know what's good, look it up on a forum, and boom, there's your best set.

While the concept of BiS is the same, XI had a vastly more complicated nuances to consider compared to XIV (like multi-attack stats, Weapon Skill modifier stats, accuracy, elemental gorgets / belts, Magic Attack Bonus, Store TP - and this is just for weapon skills). There's a reason why I carried NINETY (yes, 90!) pieces of gear on my WHM for any given situation in XI. Admittedly, on XI the number of gears sets you have depends on the class you play and how passionate you are about that class, but you can see how that's very different from XIV.

In XIV, "This set does more damage because it has more of this secondary stat"

In XI it's "This set does more damage in accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage in non-accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage against these types of targets because their defense is at this point so my set will get more benefit from attack, this set does more damage because my attack is capped against this particular target, etc.. etc.."

My random comment for the actual topic discussion - I personally don't care about horizontal progression much any more because min-maxing sets in XI drove me absolutely nuts..

[KingOfAbyss]

Since they love to copy other games, I wonder why they left the Diablo Franchise on the side.

Nothing was more enticing than after so many hours invested, to find 'THE' uber-super-duper-one-of-a-kind Weapon or armor piece that everyone wants, but you are but a few over the world to get it.

Some sold these in real, I wonder why..

Ok so let's put things like this aside (make it so players can't sell it and their accounts)

But please, I know everyone is entitled to get everything from the game since everyone pays per month.

And everyone can beat Turn 9 without having to pay for a run. (The hard part is to assemble a nice group, rest is just mechanics.)

At least make an Event (yes you can repeat it 14 times if you want ) That once per year, it's a Server-wide fight for this Unique loot (not like those in game where unique lose it's sense when you see someone else having it as well as you >.< ) -

I know, server crashes with only Odin..

But if that can open the door to some brainstorming on the Dev side, we would have a little bit of vertical progression.

You can even be less harsh and give 100 or 1000 Items per server, with your wonderful RNG.

I don't know but now getting the best armor and weapons, knowing that it will be put as glamour only in 3 months average.. let us enjoy it a bit more.

ilvl200 soon? No thank you, It feels ridiculous.

Thank you for your time.

This, OP, is why, despite all the grind and RNG drops etc, I really love the relic quest, I wish there was more like, perhaps relic armor or jewelry that upgrades over patches, would be nice

Yes, I liked it as it's the only thing aside that feel it has a value. Now SE, do the same with the Armors!

[Tupsi]

That's what I meant by the battle system differences - They're simply different beasts. BiS in XIV means you can wear that and never take it off until next obsoletion and sadly BiS in XIV is more along the lines of it has your (Main stat), then it has Crit Rate+40 and Accuracy+40, compared to Skill Speed+40 and Det+11. In XI, BiS might be a body piece that heavily mods your Empyrean Weapon Skill, but not so much mods your magic (e.g Blue Mage.) So concepts definitely the same, the battle system just had much more to it in XI because it was "turn based" so more strategy could go into optimization. Even with the introduction of Ilvl into XI and following the more "standard' route of MMOs it's still not completely the same.

Having options is nice, which is USUALLY what HP is for, but VP gives you options that you may not end up performing well because you chose to get rid of your accuracy for skill speed.

[Clavaat]

In XIV, "This set does more damage because it has more of this secondary stat"

In XI it's "This set does more damage in accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage in non-accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage against these types of targets because their defense is at this point so my set will get more benefit from attack, this set does more damage because my attack is capped against this particular target, etc.. etc.."

And I understand that. However, it doesn't change the fact that it's the same thing at the end of the day, and calling for some sort of change would accomplish basically nothing, as this game has plenty of horizontal progression. I don't see how having gear from lvl50 being better than lvl75 gear is horizontal, but I can see why having several i100 sets is horizontal.

[Dwill]

I will let you think that quelling strikes really makes a difference in enmity in a 8 mins+ fight and go ahead. oh and yeah every fight in current end game isn't a single mob with sometimes a few adds coming (T6, T8, every primal but the mog, T9, T5... sigh).

Also, you're trying to prove me wrong with bad arguments. Sure summoners share enmity with pets, but it's still easily noticeable if they do a good work or not. especially in 8 men fights where you can easily check if their DoTs are up or not.

Whether it does a huge difference or not is irrelevant. Fight of the matter is that it does make a slight difference and that's enough to throw your enmity bar argument in the garbage can.

Summoners DoT makes up for only 40% of their damage. Just checking once every so often if their dots are up is not going to be the sign of them doing good damage.

Horizontal progression works well with games that have very hard to obtain rewards such as ff11 in the zilart-treasures era.

This game would have to be changed in a fundamental way to allow for horizontal progression.

Is it smart to do for ff14? Probably not.

The game could use more depth to gear such as set bonuses, on use effects, and passive traits on gear. You can have an amalgamation of both horizontal and vertical progression in a game like this.

It didn't really work all that well because once you got your piece of gear, you had it for years. Not interested.